Mechanical fix to hairloss (occluding the scalp)

[cuebreeze]

mechanical fix idea. Would it work?

For anyone intrested ive been experimenting by occluding the scalp muscles with a blood pressure cuff for scalp tightness and its deffently working. My mpb skin is slowly gathering more stretch after 1 month.
Anyway im still looking for that perfect way to strecth that skin back 'UP' and had an idea.

My idea would be to wear a rubber ring around the mpb line which has a vaccuum bag around it that would create a sucktion on the mpb area and pull/stretch the skin.

My question is, would it pull out all the follicles. I amagine that it wouldnt (depending on pressure). I dont think that much pressure would be needed to create an overall 'PULL' on the scalp. It mite get rid of some hairs that were close to falling out anyway but what do people think of this idea? Any way i could better it?

I dont mind bad feedback, just give me something i can use also =D

[OverMachoGrande]

I'm totally on board with you on these "mechanical fixes". I know some people make fun of it, but like I've said before... the cause of hair loss has NOT been fully identified, and the simple DHT explanation doesn't hold water.

What started it with me was getting sore through lasers -something not everyone gets, but the people that get it ALL have results. That can't be ignored. Well, when you look at this diagram of how muscle tension pulls the scalp:



...it's easy to start to think "Wait a sec... maybe there is a reason for that unexplained pattern of loss!"

Plus, we KNOW -you, me, and everyone- that a bald persons head looks "different" than a person with a full head of hair that shaved it. The bald persons head looks TIGHT, and the person who shaved it looks more "loose". I always attributed that to fibrosis, and thought it probably wan't actually tight... it just looked that way. Well, maybe this muscle tension thing actually has some merit.

Here is another image to sort of illustrate the point:



So, I don't care how many people say that this is bogus, the fact is that it has NOT been explored nor tested in any sort of quantity by forum members, and it needs to be pursued! If you don't know me yet... I don't like to be told what contributing factors of hair loss are or aren't by people who think they know everything, can cite any study in the book, yet haven't done anything to stop their own loss! lol...

No clue whether this will have merit or not... but the point is, we don't know, and based on a few sources it just might!

I will be one of the ones that are "occluding", and I have some questions about it -including how you found one with a long enough band to wrap around your head (see... I wasn't paying attention! lol..). Also, if you could run down the treatment protocl that would be fantastic!

-O.M.G.

[OverMachoGrande]

Oh, let me add one more point...

As far as I know, everyone that actually stuck with those horrible boring "scalp exercises" from the crazy man at hairloss-reversible actually DID notice some results. The problem of course is that no one wants to do them for half an hour each night.

Cuebreeze... if you could maybe go into the principles of this, too -about how "occlusion" is something that body builders use to speed up results in hard to train areas, that'd be awesome.

This needs to be a video, by the way. Either you can do it or I can do it -if you tell me where to get the one with the really big band!

-O.M.G.

[p__]

I'm totally on board with you on these "mechanical fixes". I know some people make fun of it, but like I've said before... the cause of hair loss has NOT been fully identified, and the simple DHT explanation doesn't hold water.

Personally, I don't think this type of theory is accurate (although I welcome the discussion and naturally hope I'm wrong ). One big problem with this kind of theory is that it fails to explain why follicles from AGA susceptive areas of the head keep miniaturizing "right on schedule" when transplanted to another part of the body.

[OverMachoGrande]

Hey, P_!

Yeah, it cerainly isn't perfect at all, so I don't mean to say that "this is the reason", I mean to say that "this could be a factor -and it might explain the pattern"!

Look, lasers probably wouldn't be effective if scalp tension was the root cause, but they ARE, so there is obviously more to the puzzle! I, like you, don't really care about the theory, though... that can catch up to us later. What I'd like to see is more people trying this so we can know whether it's beneficial!

So, make sure you don't hold me to saying that "this is the reason"! lol...

-O.M.G.

[p__]

Yeah, it cerainly isn't perfect at all, so I don't mean to say that "this is the reason", I mean to say that "this could be a factor -and it might explain the pattern"!
So, make sure you don't hold me to saying that "this is the reason"! lol...

Hehehe, I hear you bro! Certainly, the more people trying various stuff, the better! I just think it's important that all aspects of a theory are presented, good or bad, just to avoid that "hysteria" that we, AGA sufferers, are so prone to (myself included).

Regarding the pattern, I think that rationale is invalidated by the "transplanted-follicle-miniaturizes-on-other-parts-of-the-body-just-as-fast" fact. But it still may be helpful to hair; for instance it could help keeping it as healthy as it can be without battling the reasons behind the miniaturization, making existing hair look healthier and fuller while you're losing it

Cheers!

[cuebreeze]

Ill give a bit more info later this weekend as im just heading to work. I dont think the tension is the actuall problem. I think the problem is fibrosis and decreases subcutaneous fat but i think once fibrosis kicks in and we lose that fat than the scalp muscles are too weak to keep hair all on there own. Anyway ill add more to this soon

[p__]

fibrosis kicks in and we lose that fat than the scalp muscles are too weak to keep hair all on there own.

Uh, I don't mean to sound condescending but are you seriously saying you think that the scalp muscles "hold" the follicles in? And that when we lose hair it is because the muscles are weak and "let go" of the follicle? If so, then I just don't know what to say anymore...

Surely, I must be misunderstanding what you're saying.

Anyway, did you think about the fact that hair which is transplanted from the scalp of a balding man to another part of his body where he is not balding, will STILL miniaturize as if it was on the scalp, even though the area where that hair is transplanted to is not subject to your proposed fat loss and muscle deterioration? And follicles transplanted from non-balding areas to balding areas will not miniaturize, even though they are planted in that supposedly "bad scalp" and can remain there for tens of years?

[billythekid]

Personally, I don't think this type of theory is accurate (although I welcome the discussion and naturally hope I'm wrong ). One big problem with this kind of theory is that it fails to explain why follicles from AGA susceptive areas of the head keep miniaturizing "right on schedule" when transplanted to another part of the body.

Maybe those hair follicles are dying and there's no saving them. If the scalp can only grow hair when it is healthy, then follicles that aren't strong enough to grow, wont grow.

Perhaps hair in non-susceptible MPB areas are super strong because they have had 0 years of degradation, and are programmed to regenerate, and can grow anywhere as a consequence.

[p__]

Maybe those hair follicles are dying and there's no saving them.

Then what's the point of the "mechanical fix" if there is no saving them?

If the scalp can only grow hair when it is healthy, then follicles that aren't strong enough to grow, wont grow.

But they survive just as short when transplanted to non-MPB areas, where this supposed "mechanical problem" doesn't exist.

Perhaps hair in non-susceptible MPB areas are super strong because they have had 0 years of degradation, and are programmed to regenerate, and can grow anywhere as a consequence.

But they grow perfectly well on the supposedly "bad scalp" when transplanted, even after 30 years. It just doesn't make sense.

[cuebreeze]

You all have good points and i dont beleive the hairloss is specifically caused by the muscle tension or skin tightness. Maybe the tension doesnt need to be reversed to fix hairloss but i beleive it may be the last part of the process that caused them to fall out. For example, say it was the subcutaneous fat decreasing over time that caused all the capillarys to die off in the mpb area. Than without all that connected tissues and vessels etc they wouldnt have the strength (blood flow, nutrients etc) to hold the skin/hair in place and would slowly disconnect from the capillary bed and 'PULL' back over years and years. So there still may be flaws in that theory (you tell me) and it wouldnt mean that the tension was the 'root cause' of it all but it would be the part that made the process so agressive for some people (depending on there scalp muscles/galea movement etc). It could also explain why some people people recede from the front (weak frontalis muscles) and some people notice the crown thinning first (possibly weak occlutis muscles) -----> i forgot the name of the muscles at the back =).



Anyway does this make anymore sense now?

[goten574]

I believe the muscles do play a part in this somehow, I just can't explain the pattern of hair loss any other way.

[billythekid]

p__

I don't think any of your arguments necessarily disprove the theory that occluding the scalp is beneficial to mpb.

Lets say hair follicles on the scalp are damaged by the same process that damages / alters the scalp. If this process has run its course, and you then transplant a healthy hair, then that healthy hair will survive, for example because the process that was altering the scalp / killing the follicle has stopped.

I'm not sure if i'm making any sense, but it's a theory. And just because there is some evidence suggesting otherwise, you should never totally discount a theory when there are so many unknowns when it comes to mpb.

If occluding is beneficial, it would be because it would halt the process that alters the scalp, in turn potentially saving existing hairs from dying. The end effect would be a halt in recession of the hairline.

If occluding somehow stops the signal that kills hairs, then it would only be a matter of reawekening the dormant follicles. Whether that be using something as simple as minox, or something more complex as wnt signalling through wounding/healing.

[p__]

Lets say hair follicles on the scalp are damaged by the same process that damages / alters the scalp. If this process has run its course, and you then transplant a healthy hair, then that healthy hair will survive, for example because the process that was altering the scalp / killing the follicle has stopped.

1. MPB is a progressive condition and gets worse over time. It is not a switch which is triggered once and then it runs its linear course no matter what happens. That is proven by the fact that MPB in many cases can be halted by various treatments, such as finasteride. Therefore, it cannot be a one-time process which stops. Consequently, transplanted hairs from non-AGA areas should start miniaturizing. They don't. Not even when transplanted early in the progression of hair loss.
2. If your proposed "one-time scalp damage process" has already run its course (which supposedly must take place before/in the very beginning of the occurence of hair loss since transplanted follicles from non-MPB areas have not been observed to miniaturize no matter when they where transplanted), what would the point of occlusion be?

I could go on...

[chore boy]

Don't know if this has been posted already. Not sure what to make of the dermis being thicker in AGA than in controls.

Background: Ultraviolet light radiations (UVR) may be responsible for hair cycle synchronization and telogen effluvium in the animal and humans. The effect if any of cumulative UVR on chronic hair shedding and androgenic alopecia (AGA) is largely unknown. Objective: To compare the severity of AGA with the extent of solar elastosis. Method: The present study combining immunohistochemistry and computerized image analysis was undertaken in 140 men with AGA and 50 non-alopecic men. Solar elastosis was identified using the antibody to lysozyme, and collagen was revealed by Sirius red staining. The number and diameter of hair shafts were also assessed. Results: The scalp dermis was significantly thicker in AGA than in unaffected subjects. The difference was mainly due to a severer elastosis in baldness. The earliest signs of solar elastosis preceded hair thinning. When elastosis was thicker than 0.2 mm, a negative exponential correlation was found between hair diameter and severity of solar elastosis. Conclusion: Chronic UVR exposure of the scalp may affect the hair cycle and be one of the exogenous factors influencing negatively the progression of AGA. The induction of stress-induced premature senescence by reactive oxygen species and micro-inflammation might be operative at the level of the follicular stem cells.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr ... tNr=227090

[hapyman]

Where is Lava212 to help discuss this? Anyone seen him around HLF yet?

Anyhow there is more to this than Cuebreeze is able to fully express. Occlusion training is not merely a "mechanical" fix for hair loss even though some of the changes are mechanistic. It has been studied quite a bit for body building. Basically you cut off circulation and oxygen to the muscles for a period of time while at the same time you do low-intensity training on the muscles. The lack of circulation increases lactic acid, which is a signaling molecule for growth hormones and many other signaling molecules. There is definitely a physiological response to doing this type of training.

Here is an excerpt from Lava212 that I was able to pull off Google Cache and this is how/why people started occluding their scalp muscles over at regrowth:

Lava212 said:
A question for anyone curious, but especially for the lifters

Has anyone heard of occlusion training? I have experimented with it before but now that I am back to working-out I started using it again. It was developed by the Japanese. There are plenty of sites that talk about it, just google it if you are more interested.

This is how it goes. I HAD small calves my whole life and they took much focus and energy to make them porportional to the rest of my body, even though I am very athletic and fast. It takes just too damn long to get them pumped and sore. High weight doesn't help and doing a ton of reps gets old really fast. I started last Wednesday and it looks like my calves have increased already. They increased quickly also the last time I used this technique, which was about a year ago. At that time my friend said, "Damn, thats all from occlusion training? They look thick, defined and there is good seperation." I have a blood pressure cuff and place it just below my knee. I increase the pressure to about 140-200 mmHg. Legs and larger muscles usually need/can tolerate more pressure. I use 50-70mmHg on my biceps and that is enough. The pressure slows down the blood flow to your muscles to a point that the oxygen being delivered isn't getting there quick enough to refresh the muscles. This thus requires the fast-twitch muscles to be engaged. Lactic acid is the key. It increases so rapidly that your body freaks out and sends a ton of anabolic chemicals/hormones into circulation. It has been shown that using this technique for leg training can up HGH by 290% while heavy squats and high load leg workouts only increased it by 100%. The good thing about this is that the muscles aren't damaged or need time to recover like traditional workouts. Cortisol levels are also much lower, which is a good thing. It also inhibits myostatin, a chemical that restricts the muscle from getting as big as it wants. It has been shown that doing a few squats before whatever workout your doing gets anabolic hormones going at an increased amount. I am going to buy another cuff and do some hacksquats before each workout to maximize my results. Anyway, you can use this technique on your extremities to add mass very easily. It doesn't increase testosterone, but jacks HGH off the charts. HGH is great for hair, skin, and about everything else having to do with aging.

I know, it sounds dangerous, but I think it really isn't. There is no tingling or change in color that would signal something wrong. I had swollen knees a few years ago and wrapped my knees really tight everyday and my calves would swell with lympathic fluid. Thats bad. Compression therapy is used all the time at hospitals. You are supposed to only have the cuff on for a maximum 10 min. bout before taking it off and starting another bout to avoid any possible complications. I can't even last that long. The lactic acid is SO DAMN intense. More intense than anything I have ever experienced. The amount of lactic acid is dictated by the amount of pressure. I can flex my calf muscles so easy now and added some obvious size, AND ITS ONLY BEEN ONE WEEK. I wonder if it would be good for scalp exercises.

I was just thinking that this could be something others may not have heard of and may be interested in. Anyone tried it?

Here is an excerpt from a site discussing the mechanism of action:

From: http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cf ... StartRow=2
By: Layne Norton
Mechanisms of Action

Several mechanisms may explain the exciting growth and strength adaptations that occur with blood-occlusion training. The first is related to fiber recruitment. One of the major reasons high-intensity training works so well is that it forces trainees to recruit the larger fast-twitch muscle fibers, the fibers that have the greatest capacity for growth. Studies have demonstrated an increase in fiber activation equivalent to high-intensity training, as measured by electromyographic activity, greater whole-body oxygen uptake and increased depletion of ATP from muscle tissue. Likely, the fatigue in the small slow-twitch muscle fibers in a low-oxygen (no blood flow) environment causes increased motor unit recruitment, as well as inhibiting muscular contraction in those fibers due to lactic acid buildup. As fatigue sets in, the body is forced to recruit larger muscle fibers to maintain force output.

A second major mechanism is related to occlusion training’s stimulation of anabolic hormones. Occlusion during leg extensions increases blood growth hormone by as much as 290 percent. To put that in perspective, traditional high-intensity training has resulted in up to 100 percent increases in GH.

The explanation lies within the finding that low-oxygen environments increase lactic acid production, while the occlusion traps it inside the muscle tissue. Past studies show strong correlations between blood lactic acid and GH, a phenomenon most likely explained by increasing acidity in the blood. Moreover, research suggests that the accumulation of lactic acid in fast-twitch muscle fibers is sensed by local chemical receptors and carried back to the hypothalamus, which ups the rate of GH secretion.

Myostatin has received a great deal of press over the past decade, and rightly so, as its upregulation stunts muscle growth by inhibiting the addition of nuclei capable of supporting further growth to muscle fiber. That factor was recently found to be inhibited in the quadriceps following short-duration occlusion training.

What really makes the technique unique is its ability to stimulate muscle growth without a detectable rise in muscle tissue damage. That’s amazing, as many scientists suggest that muscle damage is essential to trigger growth. Finally, a number of studies have revealed that cortisol may not increase after occlusion training. By contrast, cortisol rises relative to increasing intensity and is responsible not only for myostatin upregulation but also for overtraining and the breakdown of muscle tissue.

To recap, blood-occlusion training can increase motor unit recruitment, raise anabolic hormones and suppress local negative regulators of muscle growth. It’s also free from many of the negative side effects of training, such as increased muscle damage and unfavorable catabolic hormone increases.

[cuebreeze]

Yea sorry i havent shown more info but there is alot on the old regrowth threads that i cant get to anymore.

Anyway my latest is this.

After occluding for about 1.5months i have stopped for a week and now im having a shed that i havent had in a while. Im talking 100-150 hairs. I was down to about 30-40 not long ago. Also im having a tiny itch returning.

My question is that if you were to reverse hairloss, would the itch etc return while regrowth was happening? I am a bit worried as i dont know wether to stick with it as (it mite be working) or could the shed be bad, i just dont know. I wasnt having any sheds while occluding tho and the shed has come since i stopped about a week ago (shed started 7 days last occluding session).

Also i dont think im receding as per usual but more so just general shedding all over of normal looking hairs.

[N0rwgnKid]

Lets say hair follicles on the scalp are damaged by the same process that damages / alters the scalp. If this process has run its course, and you then transplant a healthy hair, then that healthy hair will survive, for example because the process that was altering the scalp / killing the follicle has stopped.

1. MPB is a progressive condition and gets worse over time. It is not a switch which is triggered once and then it runs its linear course no matter what happens. That is proven by the fact that MPB in many cases can be halted by various treatments, such as finasteride. Therefore, it cannot be a one-time process which stops. Consequently, transplanted hairs from non-AGA areas should start miniaturizing. They don't. Not even when transplanted early in the progression of hair loss.
2. If your proposed "one-time scalp damage process" has already run its course (which supposedly must take place before/in the very beginning of the occurence of hair loss since transplanted follicles from non-MPB areas have not been observed to miniaturize no matter when they where transplanted), what would the point of occlusion be?

I could go on...

I question eveything that you question, but I believe that we gotta see this in a greater picture and not a fix or an explanation of the mystery of the hairloss pattern. I dont know about you but dont you think that a transplanted hair from a non-mpb area to an mpb-area would thin quicker then what it would have if it was not transplanted in the first place. I have found no study that questions this, but my guesses would be yes, perhaps. This then age-related thinning may be due to a mechanincal issue perhaps, among other factors. I am actually just throwing out thoughts.. I believe in the "several factors involved" way of thinking when dealing with my hairloss, there is just so much out there that may contribute.. also mechanical factors.

[N0rwgnKid]

Interesting Cue.. yeah tough one.. perhaps it is only a coincidence, a normal shed, they should happen normally 3-4 times a year according to IH, if I remember correctly. Or perhaps it is just a sign that the occlusion is working, I mean, you are only 1.5 month into it, maybe its "kicking" in or whatever, lol If anything else, doing something new, threw in or out an additional supplement lately ?

For the record, I am having a shed lately too, the last three weeks. It has actually gotten worse the last week, and I started seriously scalp excercising/occluding a little over a week ago... but there is so much new things I've been doing the last 2 months so I actually have no clue what this might be coming from really... perhaps you have a similiar case if you think about it ?

[p__]

I dont know about you but dont you think that a transplanted hair from a non-mpb area to an mpb-area would thin quicker then what it would have if it was not transplanted in the first place.

You must have missed the important part: hair from non-mpb areas does not miniaturize when transplanted to a mpb area. It can sit there in the mpb area for 30 years or more without thinning.

[cuebreeze]

p___....

I understand what you mean about transplanted hairs but heres my theory...


The capillary bed beneath the mpb area doesnt move with the tension. They disconnect from organs etc that create the hair but the capillary bed doesnt move (only the top layers of skin do). So when a transplanted hair is put in place where mpb has allready taken place it will still survive.

Then you ask your self how long until it strecthes the skin where the hairs have been transplanted to and my only guess would be that the skin would only stretch so far, i dunno bout that one. Alltho that theory about the capillary bed im pretty sure ive read somewhere that the capillary bed doesnt move so that could have some truth to it.

[p__]

So when a transplanted hair is put in place where mpb has allready taken place it will still survive.

Allow me to quote myself from this very thread:

1. MPB is a progressive condition and gets worse over time. It is not a switch which is triggered once and then it runs its linear course no matter what happens. That is proven by the fact that MPB in many cases can be halted by various treatments, such as finasteride. Therefore, it cannot be a one-time process which stops. Consequently, transplanted hairs from non-AGA areas should start miniaturizing. They don't. Not even when transplanted early in the progression of hair loss.
2. If your proposed "one-time scalp damage process" has already run its course (which supposedly must take place before/in the very beginning of the occurence of hair loss since transplanted follicles from non-MPB areas have not been observed to miniaturize no matter when they where transplanted), what would the point of occlusion be?

[cuebreeze]

Hahaha cheers man, my bad. Ill keep diggin

[kamisama]

Ive actually been doing tom's SE for bout 7 months now. although i do it religiously everyday, i cannot say the same thing for the duration, sometimes more sometimes less. however, supposedly the peak would be 8-9 months. thats when you will be able to tell if it works for you. ive tried to get in contact with a guy call SpaceCowboy who has remarkable results but to no avail.

[goten574]

Ive actually been doing tom's SE for bout 7 months now. although i do it religiously everyday, i cannot say the same thing for the duration, sometimes more sometimes less. however, supposedly the peak would be 8-9 months. thats when you will be able to tell if it works for you. ive tried to get in contact with a guy call SpaceCowboy who has remarkable results but to no avail.

I wanted to try that scalpe exercise too but didn't know if I was doing it right so I don't bother with it. If you do start seeing results, please let us know!

[kamisama]

lol, to be honest im not 100% sure that i did it right as well. i did asked tom a few times regarding it, and ok im assuming im doing it right. i do have a problem is that i do not have a balance control of the muscles even till now, one side of it is still stronger than the other, though the other has improved over the time. i tell the "strength" of muscle based on how much my ears move just doing the backward occulation (spelling?)

ok i'll chime in more regarding some observations when i have the time. but for now, significant or visible results in the regrowth aspect is none.

[goten574]

lol, to be honest im not 100% sure that i did it right as well. i did asked tom a few times regarding it, and ok im assuming im doing it right. i do have a problem is that i do not have a balance control of the muscles even till now, one side of it is still stronger than the other, though the other has improved over the time. i tell the "strength" of muscle based on how much my ears move just doing the backward occulation (spelling?)

ok i'll chime in more regarding some observations when i have the time. but for now, significant or visible results in the regrowth aspect is none.

When I did try and do the excerises before, I too notice one side is a lot stronger than the other. I don't do them now as I don't know if I do them correctly and in fear I could get wrinkles in my forehead.

Question, do your eyebrows move up when you do the exercises? Or can you control the muscles at the back without raising eyebrows?

[hapyman]

one side of it is still stronger than the other, though the other has improved over the time.

I have a similar situation... my left side seems to be weaker than my right side. The left side is almost equal now but it is still weaker.

[hapyman]

For everyone reading this thread. THIS IS NOT JUST SCALP EXERCISES. Yes scalp exercises are done but it is not considered occlusion training until the blood supply is cutoff during the exercises. Cuebreeze uses a large (thigh) blood pressure cup around the top portion of his head to achieve this. Recently I have been doing this with a large rubber band (tourniquet). There was a couple others doing this over at regrowth, Lava212 being the main one who got this started.

The advantages of doing is this is that the temporary lack of blood supply increases lactic acid buildup and the tiggering of HGH and other growth factors.

I haven't been consistent doing this but I can tell you that there is a significant difference between the two. With occlusion the "sore" sensation is much more pronounced and the results are much quicker. Once starting occluding you will notice a drastic increase in scalp flexibility and muscle contraction vs. just scalp exercises alone. While I still do the scalp exercises alone I do think there is some merit to occluding maybe 3 times per week or at most once per day. Also if you read through that guys site he says that to get results you want to be sore and occluding will definitely achieve this quicker.

[kamisama]

i do understand this is using the cuff pressure thingy. but actually something similar has been done along ago at hairloss reversible. we call it the pumped up version. but instead of using additional equipement, u hold ur palm on the side of ur scalp and push it towards the centre. while holding it, u do the SE. its several times stronger than normal SE, and its the same concept as the thing u used.

[kamisama]

lol, to be honest im not 100% sure that i did it right as well. i did asked tom a few times regarding it, and ok im assuming im doing it right. i do have a problem is that i do not have a balance control of the muscles even till now, one side of it is still stronger than the other, though the other has improved over the time. i tell the "strength" of muscle based on how much my ears move just doing the backward occulation (spelling?)

ok i'll chime in more regarding some observations when i have the time. but for now, significant or visible results in the regrowth aspect is none.

When I did try and do the excerises before, I too notice one side is a lot stronger than the other. I don't do them now as I don't know if I do them correctly and in fear I could get wrinkles in my forehead.

Question, do your eyebrows move up when you do the exercises? Or can you control the muscles at the back without raising eyebrows?

it moves up only when u contract the frontalis (spelling?). when i do the backward the eyebrows doesnt move