The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Discuss the use of laser therapy for fighting hair loss. If you're using a purchased device, or a laserbrush or helmet that you've made yourself, discuss it here.

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LaserKid
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The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by LaserKid » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:06 am

Ok, so people are (rightly) worried about all the recent posts regarding laser shedding. Here's a roundup of what I have gathered from most people so far:
Initial gains in the first few months, thicken and regrowth followed by massive shedding at months 3-5.

I've been doing some reading from the old posts at HLH and I came across a guy who complained that despite initial gains with propecia, after 3-4 he had a massive shed. The story seems too similar to those who have recently commented on laser shedding. Someone on the forum commented on how in some people propecia seems to trigger a telogen effluvium type hairloss a few months after starting and that they should stop treatment. For those who don't know TE is a diffuse hairloss triggered by bodily stresses such as surgery or excessive weight loss. The physiological changes in the body during this period lead to hair shedding and hence TE. Here's a link to back up my claim, sorry I lost the link on HLH:

http://www.baldingblog.com/2009/08/03/m ... effluvium/

Anyway, I am convinced that the hairloss everyone is experiencing with lasers is TE and is as a result of physiological changes within the scalp vasculature/tissues. If so, then no-one has to worry about whether their hair will grow back or not because if you remove the offending stimulus then yes it should.

I'll just recap all the information to confirm my claim. Firstly, the shed involves both thick and thin hairs so cannot be a simple shed due to a hairloss treatment, plus these sheds tends to occur at the beginning of treatment. Secondly, this cannot be permanent hair removal because we've already said that the joules and wavelength are incorrect to do this. Thirdly, this cannot be acceleration of mpb, because I do not think this is even possible unless exposing someone to the hormones responsible, namely test and dht. So, it can only be TE, which fits perfectly, massive shedding on a diffuse scale.

On a final note, treatment would be to remove laser treatments for a while, and then maybe reintroduce slowly to allow the follicles to adapt to the changing physiological processes that are happening when you laser it up. What do you guys think? I'm pretty convinced, but then I do have a habit of convincing myself.

Awaiting Regrowth
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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by Awaiting Regrowth » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:46 pm

This would make sense....you put a large stressor on the body and it reacts. I can see that, I just hope you are correct in that it is not permanent.

Regards

A

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Anxious1
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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by Anxious1 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:23 pm

nice post awaiting... small posts like that are a good way to boost ur post count, to try and make people think ur not a shill for lazerfish, or lazerfish himself. ur up to 31 now, but do we trust u now?

i smell a skiboy scam

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by Dr. Watt » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:25 pm

Awaiting Regrowth wrote:This would make sense....you put a large stressor on the body and it reacts. I can see that, I just hope you are correct in that it is not permanent.

Regards

A
The question I would like to understand is what stress is being caused by the lasers. I think I agree that they are being shocked but why. Any why not everyone? I have read so many posts and I can't find any pattern other than the timing (3- 5 month). I can say that at about the 5.5. month time I pulled back on my usage time. First 20 minutes every 3rd day and for the last 3 weeks 12 minutes every 3rd day. The massive shed has definately stopped. Obviouslly I can't link the two for sure because it could be a coincedence.

Anyway, I am starting month 7 and will follow this usage pattern through the rest of the year assuming no more sheds and will check back in with status. Hoping for the positive.

I know others are adjusting time use as well and hopefully we will get enough reports that we learn something.

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by tonyj » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:21 pm

I wondering if the people using the standard protocol( 3 times a week 20 minutes per session) with no response to the Laser Therapy are using Nizoral, Nizoral cream or Minoxidil?

Some of the people going through massive sheds are currently using the those topicals and shampoo.

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by robster » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:18 am

Just curious why do you mention nizoral? I know about the questions regarding LLLT and minox, but nizoral?

tonyj wrote:I wondering if the people using the standard protocol( 3 times a week 20 minutes per session) with no response to the Laser Therapy are using Nizoral, Nizoral cream or Minoxidil?

Some of the people going through massive sheds are currently using the those topicals and shampoo.

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by OverMachoGrande » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:24 pm

Just a reminder -I feel like I have to say this all the time because of a couple of drama queens that were making it sound like no one has ever gotten laser results when it's STILL the best f*cking think in the forums... and even this FORUM OWNER is having good results with it- but these horrible sheds have happened with only a few people at the most, and there is a lot of, umm... "clouds" surrounding most of it to begin with. Good freaking lord... did I even need to say that?! lol...

Anyway, enough of that... I think most of you understand that. I was actually going to do a piece on shedding in general because actually we know a good bit about it. There is something called a "synchronized shedding", and it's what happens when something WORKS. Because of this induced panic from very unstable (if they are legit) people, many people going through a normal synchronized shedding are thinking they are going to have this whatever the hell drama shed, when what they are experiencing is NORMAL.

HERE COMES THE EDUCATION...

One aspect of MPB is an out-of-whack telogen to anagen ration. Here is the scoop... when you start something that's going to work for you -lasers, propecia, giraffe piss, whatever- your hair all of a sudden kicks back into anagen phase. Well, ORDINARILY, your hair doesn't all do that AT ONCE... it's a random mix, and any given time you've got just a little bit of hair shedding.

Well... FIXING MPB requires swapping that anagen to telogen ratio, and to go back into anagen phase... YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SHED. I didn't make that up, that's the way it is. Because you are doing something that is triggering the change from telogen to anagen all at once, you are going to have this "synchronized shed" at some point because of the hair cycles starting over together.

The good news is that duh... it ends, but yes, it will be scary on the heels of THE BIGGEST DRAMA HYPE I've ever seen -with the purpose to discredit these helmets as seen by the BASHING of all of us involved in the laser movement.

Even better news is that the cycles eventually become more and more random again, so a certain amount of time down the road, it'll all be normal again. If you don't like what I'm saying, by the way... go take it up with Dr. Proctor and stop trying to say that "Oh, yeah, these laser guys are just doing damage control or something."

Take my situation... I've said this before but I'll recap. I may or may not have had a shed at the beginning. My hair looked god awful -way worse than most of yours- for something like three or more years before I started it. I was a slave to toppik to that time -which is not a good situation to be in.

So... did I have a shed? I wouldn't have noticed! I probably did... and that's probably why I didn't notice anything at all until month 3 1/2 -which is only slightly shorter than the drama shedders have been using there devices- and I didn't notice shocking difference until month SIX.

Now... I've said this before... I HAD A BIG SHED AT MONTH 13! I didn't think much of it, of course, because I'm level headed, I know this happens, and because this was before the days of the drama shedders. It ended, and my hair was, OF COURSE, even better when it came back. That's the way it works.

And Awaiting Regrowth... ain't nobody buying your %&$! here anymore. Why you are still here is something of a mystery to me.

...which leads me to my SECOND POINT:

I'm going to state the obvious. Everyone that has any experience has seen this before in the forums... the people that have these PANIC POSTS never get results. Period. You've seen it A LOT. Man, the people that are either nuts, overly hostile, frantic, suicidal, whatever... THEY NEVER GET RESULTS FROM ANYTHING -lasers, giraffe piss, propecia, superzix II, whatever.

So... I know most of you veterans are nodding your heads right now. We've all seen it so many times. Now, WHY is that?

Is it stress?? I don't know. Maybe... actually "probably". We know how stress can prematurely age people -literally it can be drastic. Is it in their heads?? Probably that is true also. I seriously doubt some of the mentally unstable people would allow themselves to see results even if they had them, and I don't think that's difficult for most of you to see.

So, here is the scoop, and I'm not being rude... if you have a psychological problem in which you fit the description of a "panic poster"... I'm telling you right now that you aren't going to get results from anything.

...UNTIL you address your primary problem, which is mental. I'm actually quite serious about this, and I realize the context that I'm bringing this up in might cause some of you not to take me seriously, but this deserves A LOT of talk in the future. In fact, I'm going to have a complete section on this. None of us want any of us to be left behind with this.

Basically, my advice for those people with these issues is not to do one single thing to treat hair loss. You are destined for failure -ask anybody that's been in forums for a decade- and that's going to compound the problem. You've got to get your other sh*t together FIRST, and THEN -with a smile on your lips and new laid back attitude- you have to try to tackle hair loss.


-O.M.G.
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Jacob
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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by Jacob » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:46 am

I just don't agree on shedding being a good/necessary thing. I can see "shedding" normally while using treatments..even new ones. But I haven't shed like crazy since before I started treating things. And maybe that has to do with my introducing new things slowly...getting off of things slowly...rotating things..etc.

And I am a little confused..when those clowns were on here talking about shedding like crazy with LLLT- many here didn't believe them. Now it's a good thing..and should happen, I guess :-s

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by OverMachoGrande » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:48 am

Jacob wrote:when those clowns were on here talking about shedding like crazy with LLLT- many here didn't believe them. Now it's a good thing..and should happen, I guess :-s
What you are seeing is confusion on our part as well... some people have HAMMED IT UP so much that it's impossible to tell what they are actually going through so we are left to interpret reality on our own. If it's a heavier than normal shed, but it only lasts a few weeks... then it's simply "syncronized shedding" because the treatment is working. We are ASSUMING, based on the dramatic nature of some of these posters and from what we know about all posters in forum history, that this is probably what is happening. Maybe not... maybe they are going through something else.

So, you are seeing us taking our best guess after cutting through the drama. I don't give a rat's ass, though, honestly. This issue was so blown out of proportion by some people that clearly have motives that I'm not touching it. I highly doubt that "telogen effluvium" is caused by a laser helmet that is less than 1/2 the power of some of the laser clinic devices. Looking into it, telogen effluvium is caused by "shocks" to the system that are usually of an emotional nature -and are often exacerbated by anti-depressants. I've spoken to several people that deal with issues of hair loss sufferers outside of the forums now regarding this, and they concur with what I'm saying.

They have a big shock, it takes several months to manifest, and it takes several months to stop. Could the "big shock" be a 1500mW laser helmet? Doubtful being that there are 3000-4000mW laser devices out there that use diodes that are shown to have more of a negative effect on mammalian tissue. Could the laser helmet be "pushing out" these hairs that are already selected for shedding due to a shock at a quicker rate? Maybe... no info on that. Could a laser helmet cause hairs miniturized by minoxidil to fall out at an exacerbated rate? Yeah, I actually do think that's a reality based on reports.

All I know is that lots of people are doing the helmet. A few are shedding. Most of the few that are shedding are people that we are on record for saying "I guarantee you that this person isn't going to get results". So, "hmmmmmm".

OMG is done addressing the shedding issue, however, because this is a problem that will work itself out regardless of what they do. If they quit the helmet, it will eventually stop. If they use the helmet for twice as long as they should, it will eventually stop. If they use the helmet as directed, it will eventually stop. From everything I've seen, laser light simply doesn't "cause" this.
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Dr. Watt
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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by Dr. Watt » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:46 pm

OverMachoGrande wrote:
OMG is done addressing the shedding issue, however, because this is a problem that will work itself out regardless of what they do. If they quit the helmet, it will eventually stop. If they use the helmet for twice as long as they should, it will eventually stop. If they use the helmet as directed, it will eventually stop. From everything I've seen, laser light simply doesn't "cause" this.
Guys, this is ridiculous. Let's please stop pretending this shed has nothing to do with the lasers. I went through a massive shed right in the middle of months 4 - 5.5. Right inline with the reports I keep seeing from others both on these forums and others. I was not going through any emotional crisis. I did not introduce any other elements into my daily regime. I shed more in 2 months then I did in the last 2 - 3 years. The shed was consistent with how I saw others report their shedding experience. The weaker hairs which I have been nursing for a long time (I am a diffuse thinner) at the temples are all literally gone since I started.

I have compiled what folks who are complaining about their shedding are using and there seems to be just as many folks using Minox as not using Minox. I think that is a herring, interesting as it still may be. At least one of the major laser clinics cited on this forum promote Minox in their approach. I just don't think anyone has a good answer as to why potassium and calcium receptors would conteract each other and cause sheds. If they have, I would love to read it.

I can also confirm that when I slowed my usage time down, my shedding stopped. Now that could be coincidence. I have absolultely no idea. I now use my helmet 12 minutes every 3rd day.

I would love to know what the others who slowed their use times down are experiencing and if they are noticing a positive change to their shedding.

My hope is that we can work together to understand how different treatment times affect folks differently. I believe in the science of lasers. But if we think that the shedding issue with lasers is make-believe or a conspiracy theory then folks like myself are unable to use the power or the forum and many data points to help themselves and others who could benefit in the future.

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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by OverMachoGrande » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:16 am

Stop taking me out of context, Dr. Watt. I saw your timeline in the other thread and what you are describing for your case is NOT what I was reffering to when I said that quote.

Look guys, I know this is difficult to follow, but if we are going to accomplish ANYTHING here, you need to understand EXACTLY what we are saying, leave your feelings out of this discussion, and you need to tone it down a bit with all of the "ridiculous" talk. That's *exactly* why none of us care too much anymore about helping you few guys that seem to be having a problem.


-O.M.G.
  • "When all else fails, lie about OverMachoGrande." -observations by Jdp710
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Re: The Laser Shed = Telogen Effluvium

Post by omgwheresmyhair » Sat May 14, 2011 6:13 am

Hey hey.

I'm new to this forum....visited it because I'm one of those who is experiencing a definite synchronized shed.
I'm not hysterical. I'm not a drama queen.

And yet it's extremely clear to me that this was caused by overexposure to laser therapy, by the placement of the loss and the timing as well. I have lost...probably 30-35% of my hair over the last three months. I had a solid two weeks of an awful shed, as evidenced by the amount of hair in the drain and the amount of patchy hair loss on my head.

I cannot go out in public like this without using some sort of treatment to conceal this hair loss, or wearing a hat. As a woman, this has been particularly devastating.

I'm trying to take it in stride; yet to be frank, having started laser treatment because my hair had been thinned out by thyroid issues, if I had known this was a possibility I don't know that I would have begun laser therapy at all. I was definitely better off before this shed.

I still remain hopeful that 1) this hair will grow back and 2) it will grow back even better than it was. Perhaps this is a pipe dream...but I'm an optimist, and am still hoping for the best. With that said, this has been one of the most difficult things I have ever been through. I have to spend...literally...an hour extra each and every day to get ready, just to feel normal and not worry too much that others will notice the very significant hairloss I've experienced in the last few months. It's exhausting, to be frank.

I would sincerely recommend to anyone considering starting laser therapy...to start with low exposure levels slowly and build from there. In doing that, perhaps the laser exposure will only do good, and not cause any harm, even temporary. Again, I'm hoping all of this is temporary. My gut says it is. And yet...it's hard for me, as a beautiful woman, to not feel like a complete freak right now.

This could be as much user error (my own) as it could be my own particular sensitivity to laser therapy. Either way, if I had known this was a decent possibility before I got started, I would have been much more cautious with it. Laser therapy is powerful stuff; I'm grateful for it but have more respect for it now than I did before experiencing this shed! I admit that I feel...anger...resentment...and sensitivity to the idea that all those experiencing an awful shed like this are "drama queens". Losing massive amounts of hair is not an easy thing to experience, and perhaps is reason for someone to panic and be upset!! It's understandable that such a thing might blind someone to a bigger picture in the moment...that doesn't make them a "drama queen".

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