Laser soreness

Discuss the use of laser therapy for fighting hair loss. If you're using a purchased device, or a laserbrush or helmet that you've made yourself, discuss it here.

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Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:00 pm

Hey guys,

I know that there has been some dispute over whether getting sore with lasers is a good thing or bad thing. The guys over at regrowth are saying that getting sore is a bad thing because you are over stimulating your hair. And most the people here say that getting sore is a good thing. I was just curious if there is any studies done on testing laser soreness that back on either of the claims.

Thanks

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by jdp710 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:31 pm

Don't forget, some people at regrowth don't have the slightest clue about LLLT and have never even used LLLT but will make a statement ... any statement to try and discredit OMG and LLLT for various reasons.

With that said, LLLT increases Acetylcholine. Here's some info and don't forget, bioinhibition "starts" at 8 joules. The joules at 20 minutes with OMG's helmet "on a clean scalp/hair" = 4 "maybe" 5 joules tops. So you'd have to use your laser helmet for 40 minutes to get 8 joules on a clean scalp/hair.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Acetylcholine: "stimulate muscle contractions and excites nerves. An increase in acetylcholine causes a decreased heart rate and increased production of saliva, as well as readying the muscles for work. In high doses, it can cause convulsions and tremors."

"Acetylcholine is one of a group of biochemicals known as "neurotransmitters". It carries nerve impulses across the "synapse", from one neuron to another, where it propagates nerve impulses in the receiving neuron. It also carries impulses across the "motor plate", from a neuron to a muscle cell, where it generates muscle contractions. It is important to proper nervous system and muscle functioning."

http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/acetylcholine.html

"acetylcholine , a small organic molecule liberated at nerve endings as a neurotransmitter . It is particularly important in the stimulation of muscle tissue. The transmission of an impulse to the end of the nerve causes it to release neurotransmitter molecules onto the surface of the next cell, stimulating it. After such release, the acetylcholine is quickly broken into acetate and choline, which pass back to the first cell to be recycled into acetylcholine again. The poison curare acts by blocking the transmission of acetylcholine. Some nerve gases operate by preventing the breakdown of acetylcholine causing continual stimulation of the receptor cells, which leads to intense spasms of the muscles" http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-acetylch.html

hope this helps

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:08 am

Thanks jdp,

You are quite the laser genius. That makes sense to me now. I just felt this soreness today because I used scalpure before lasers. Should laser treatments be cut down to 15 mins or 18 mins if someone is using clay?

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by jdp710 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:48 am

Hey 1...,

The treatment time is still 20 minutes when using clay.

If anything, the people not washing their hair well enough to remove all the sebum, etc. may want to bump up treatment times as they'll be getting much less joules.

But then again, using your laser helmet when your scalp isn't 100% clean might just be asking for trouble considering the DHT in the sebum. I wouldn't be surprised if "some" people complaining about a shed with LLLT is due to this.

I know I've said this a million times to everyone before, but there is an extreme importance on making sure your hair is 100% clean before your LLLT session. Using french green "montmorillonite" clay or bentonite clay might be the easiest way of removing all this sebum. That way, people don't have to experiment with different shampoo's to see which works best for them.


hope this helps

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:44 am

thanks jdp,

I also noticed that some of the spots on my head where I was more sore, there was a red spot in that area. It had me thinking bc I remember reading about ppl getting a "sunburn" from laser helmet. Why do some people feel sunburned?

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by hapyman » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:29 am

Some people are mistaking the "sunburn" feeling for soreness. The real soreness goes deeper and feels more like a muscle ache. If you are feeling temporarily "sunburn" after your LLLT sessions your diodes may be running too hot.

With that said after using clay I experienced the same thing 1...

The clay really gets your scalp clean, which is ideal for LLLT.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by jdp710 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:59 am

Just to add to hapyman, if you get pimple like bumps that can't be popped, I've found that to always equal regrowth or better hair. Here is an old picture of my hair from a year ago. While it's a little hard to see, the red pimple like bump that you see in the middle of the picture and smaller ones on my hairline, I would get dozens and dozens of them when I was getting regrowth from LLLT.

Image


Recently, I've also started getting these same red pimple like bumps on the back part of my crown while fighting Lp (a) and using very high dose enzymes. Interestingly, I also got many very severe ones at the back of my neck right at the bottom of my hairline. You know, right below your ears at the back of your neck. That was one of the most surprising things I've seen in a while.

Again, these pimple like bumps like in the above picture is a very good thing, IME. Probably from calcium, Lp (a)/LDL from being broken up, I'm guessing.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by N0rwgnKid » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:15 am

jdp710 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if "some" people complaining about a shed with LLLT is due to this.
Jdp, please throw some more light on this :)

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by jdp710 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:39 am

Hey N0rwgnKid,

DHT is in your sebum. Not removing this sebum is not a good thing IMO/IME. There are many people, including myself that just by removing this sebum twice a day have shown better results when fighting hair loss. I remember Mexco once saying he used a credit card and would literally scrape his scalp to remove this sebum and mentioned better results and even regrowth I think. You also have Jaydee whose primary routine revolves around removing this sebum with soap. I've personally experienced better results if I remove this sebum. If I exercise and start sweating, I'll wash my hair with shampoo afterwards. If I don't, in the past, I would notice much faster hair loss. OMG talks about Polysorb 80. Well, you get my point.


Ok, now that I have that out of the way, keep in mind Zixcreator's comments of increasing circulation isn't a good thing when fighting MPB. Something along those lines. Well, LLLT increases circulation dramatically. Not only that, LLLT is used to increase absorption of topicals. The way it's done is LLLT is used and afterwards a topical is applied. This does increase absorption. No doubt about that. Dr. Maricle, through nidhogge, confirmed that back in the whole A&G fiasco probably via increased mitochondrial activity. Well, using LLLT on a dirty scalp with all that sebum/DHT on your scalp just makes sense to me that it could cause problems and maybe be the cause of some people mentioning a shed via the increased circulation from LLLT, and the DHT in your sebum. So again, LLLT increases absorption of topical ... which in this example would be DHT.

Not to mention the heat from the diodes themselves would be like exercising without taking a shower after. Again, IME, I've found that sweating without taking a shower after increases hair loss .

I'm no expert here so don't take this as gospel, but that just makes sense.

So again, there is an "extreme" importance of washing your hair thoroughly before your LLLT session. You don't have to wash your hair after but, again, clay is probably the most idiot proof way of removing the sebum.

I hope that makes sense

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:41 pm

I completely agree with jdp, I think every laser user should use clay before lasering. I have finally felt the sensation of laser after using clay. Not to mention it makes my hair feel and look healthier.

And for future reference, what are the steps to fixing a burning hot diode? And should I use my laser helmet even if I am still sore from the previous treatment?

Thanks guys
Last edited by 1..... on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by N0rwgnKid » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:02 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you always give awsome responds man. I thank you ! :)

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by hapyman » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:10 pm

1..... wrote: And for future reference, what are the steps to fixing a burning hot diode? And should I use my laser helmet even if I am still sore from the previous treatment?
You'll be able to tell if a diode is burning hot. It will literally burn your finger when you touch it. At this point the diode is done for and the only thing you can do is remove it. However there is another scenario where the diodes may be running a tad too hot. This may be due to over voltage or improper wiring from my experience.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:16 pm

I hope you are right about the pimples JDP. I was tons of them on my scalp from 2 sessions of scalpure and LLLT.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by robster » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:45 am

Ive also been noticing these pimple this week, theres a lot around my hairline. Ive been using clay as well, im just about to start with Scalpure. I also think some sort of clay pre-LLLT is essential to clean the scalp as much as possibble.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by hapyman » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:39 pm

I have to agree with JDP the pimples around your hairline are a good sign. I have a couple of odd hairs that have popped up through them on my front hairline. One of them is like 1/2 inch from the rest of my hairline, which is actually where my hairline used to be at :D

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:56 pm

good to hear hapyman! I'm hoping the same will apply for me!

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by robster » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:26 am

Can you guys describe what those pimples are like in any more detail? The ones I have after only 3 and half weeks of LLLT are quite red, small and flat, some are in clusters and cover some areas and theres lots of them! Its like severe acne in a way without forming a head.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:17 pm

whenever i get sore I feel kinda spacey and brain fogged a little. Does anyone else feel like this or am I just imagining things. What does Dr. Maricle say about getting sore with lasers?

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Lakers » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:02 pm

Yes I do feel that way sometimes and have even got headaches if I take a long break then do a 20 minute session or when I initially started treatments.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm

does any one else feel this way and can someone explain it. (like jdp)

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by OverMachoGrande » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:14 pm

When I wrote my "Happy Anniversary" post, I totally forgot to address this! lol... I was kicking myself that I forgot to put it in!
"The guys over at regrowth are saying that getting sore is a bad thing because you are over stimulating your hair."
That is the biggest bunch of shameless crap I've ever heard! It shows that some people indeed WILL do or say anything about anything! lol... Ok, NOT TO CAUSE A PANIC FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT DON'T GET SORE, but as it's ALWAYS been reported since DAY ONE of this laser stuff... the people that get sore -as far as I know- ALWAYS get results! I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't heard them yet.

So... there is ZERO EVIDENCE that soreness is overstimulation, and you have to consider the source. There is OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE that soreness is not only a good thing, but it's something desirable, and it's something to strive for (as long as you don't use the device over 20 minutes).

How retarded is it for people to say that getting sore is a bad thing?! That's just crazy to me, and I believe it was a certain handheld laser device salesman that said that if I'm not mistaken. If I am mistaken, who gives a flying f*ck.

Anyway, just to say it again, though... just because you DON'T get sore doesn't mean you won't get results. That's really crucial, so don't be sad if you don't. HOWEVER, I must say that I firmly believe that soreness is chemical, and I think results can be due to chemical reasons as well.

This is one reason why we think mag oil might be good, as well as some other things.

Let me throw some anecdotal evidence out there for you guys to think about. Both me and my girlfriend get very sore when we do the laser helmet. Well... being that soreness is UNCOMMON -only a minority of people get it- there is a good chance that it's not a coincidence.

At first I thought it was the DEVICE -you know, maybe some of you couldn't wire worth a damn or something! lol... Well, I know now that it isn't the device because I make most of them now.

Well, how about this... it just so happens that my girlfriend and I (fiancee... dammit, I keep forgetting) HAVE THE SAME DIET. We eat tons of red meat and other high in magnesium foods. Whether it's the magnesium or not, we BOTH get the soreness a lot.

...And it's not like we have the same genetics or anything. Shoot... you look at HER and then you look at ME, and you'd think we weren't the same species! lol...

Also, I've already told you guys that I've had a few food poisonings, etc. in which I didn't get sore at all while I felt "poisoned". I've had a few instances for half a week after inhaling a lot of lawn mower fumes that it literally felt that the laser beams where reflecting right off of my skin and I got 0% penetration.

So, there you go... soreness -and perhaps the key to greater/quicker laser success is chemical. JDP has given excellent info that magnesium is responsible for a lot of this. I think it should probably be part of the standard protocol -although I haven't tried it yet. I'm going to, and I'm going to see if I notice the difference. If so, then I'd say that's more great anecdotal evidence!

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:28 pm

hey omg, and others

I have been getting really really sore the last times I used my helmet. I used clay before and I think thats an automatic way to get sore. But when I get sore, I get minor headaches and minor brain fog moments. Is this from my brain getting use to the huge increase in circulation?? And do you think it is something that will go away over time?

Lakers-
How long does your head ache and brain fog last for?

Thanks

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:35 pm

by the way my hair is looking phenominal lately tho! way thicker then before and i'm only 2 months in. the recent addition of the clay has spurred my recent success.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Lakers » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:47 pm

more headache than brain fog...I'd say a few hours. Of course I wondered why I was getting headaches and thought about making a post about it but guess what? No one would've had a clue as to why it was happening!! isn't LLLT fun sometimes?

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:28 am

1..... wrote:by the way my hair is looking phenominal lately tho! way thicker then before and i'm only 2 months in. the recent addition of the clay has spurred my recent success.
The clay is NOW MANDATORY. I repeat, the clay is NOW MANDATORY!

If you, the average laser user, aren't using a simple bentonite clay topical before showering, then you don't know what you are missing. It takes three seconds to make -I'm going to make a video on it complete with education, graphics, and instructions how to make it- and I think one $8 - $12 pound of it would last you six months.
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:39 am

John,

Clay with the lasers is definitey why my hair is looking crazy good. I'm guna post some pics to hopefully help others in there decision on choosing laser or not. But can you answer my question above about the headaches that have been coming along with the soreness. I have only been getting sore for like a week and do you think this will go away? Do you think it is from the increased blood flow?

Thanks

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:15 pm

Hey, man!

Yeah, they SHOULD go away. I've actually heard that those headaches are indeed due to the fact that you just simply aren't used to the amount of increased blood flow, but it's something that you get acclimated to. It's a pretty common side effect apparently because even laser clinics talk about it -and they don't like to give info about ANYTHING. I've heard it should go away in a couple of weeks but I'm not sure! I probably had that, but it was so long ago now that I don't remember (almost two years!).

I've actually ordered a crap load of containers, so I'm going to start sending them to people so they can experience this! I think that a "free trial" is necessary to create awareness for this, and I think one reason some people get slower results is because of excess oil and sebum.

-O.M.G.
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Calbruin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:54 pm

Hey Guys,
Anyone know where I can order the clay you guys use? Also when/how do I use it? Thanks!

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:11 pm

Hey, Calbruin!

I'm actually going to do a video on that pretty soon! I really think there are a lot of brands and types that would work, but currently I'm using the "NOW Foods" bentonite powder brand, and it was $12 for what must be a 3-6 month supply.

I think "Aztec Healing Clay" is the exact same thing, and you can find that for like $8 for the same 1lb amount that will last forever.

At least with the NOW Foods type, I've found that mixing two tablespoons with slightly less than four ounces of water works well.

Here is what I do. I bought a bunch of 4 ounce (glass), 6 ounce (glass) and 8 ounce (plastic) containers from specialtybottle.com, and the 4 ounce and 6 ounce ones are probably the best because they are glass (this clay can absorb certain types of plastics), but I really like the plastic ones and I'm not really worried about it. They are probably made of the chemically inert type of plastic anyway, so I'm sure they are fine. Here is what the 8 ounce ones look like:

Image
http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.as ... ProdID=381

...and they are great because they are really wide -which is good for sticking your fingers in.

So, I fill it up CLOSE to the top with water, but not quite, and then I put 4 level tablespoons of clay (use an official measuring tool, don't use a regular spoon) on the top of the water, screw the lid on tight, and I vigorously shake it up for a while! That's it... it's ZERO MESS doing it that way.

That one eight ounce container would probably last about two weeks or longer (I THINK, I'm not sure yet) if you focus on the SCALP, and not the HAIR. The full 1lb of bentonite clay would last for months.

Put it on, let it dry (half an hour or so is fine), and shower it off. Then use laser therapy, and after a few sessions you'll probably notice the difference in sensation.

I'm going to say this again so more people will see this... USING CLAY WITH LASERS IS A MUST BASED ON WHAT MOST OF US HAVE SEEN SO FAR!

-O.M.G.
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by 1..... » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:39 pm

OMG-

where have you seen the clinics talk about the headaches. I tried searching a couple on google and I wasnt able to find anything.

Thanks

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Calbruin » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:28 pm

OMG,
Thanks for the response. I'm going to jump on this and start using it while I'm still in month three of LLLT.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by hapyman » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:18 pm

Those bottles look nice. I am using an empty salsa container, which works well too :D.

For those interested in some high quality clay at a real good price I get mine from www.specialclay.com

Magnetic-Pascalite-Bentonite-Clay - 5lbs @ $27.99

Calcium Bentonite Clay - 5lbs @ $22.99

The first link is a slightly better quality clay and is the one I use. 5lbs will last forever.

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Re: Laser soreness

Post by OverMachoGrande » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:31 am

Wow, Hapyman... Ok, anyone saying that we have ever overhyped ANYTHING to do with lasers needs to take a look at the Pascalite Bentonite Clay page! lol... Pages like that always make me laugh!

I might actually get it, though, because it's a pretty good price for five pounds -not because some indian chief told me it was sacred, and not because I think it's going to cure skin cancer, cataracts, brown recluse bites, or because a doctor or two mentioned it in court! lol...

I really think that for our purposes, clay is clay, but I admit that I've only tried two types -calcium bentonite and sodium bentonite- and I felt that there wasn't much difference, especially with laser stimulation.

Oh, by the way, on a sidenote... don't anyone ever get me talking about indian claims. I learned from my paranormal interests a long time ago that nothing ever holds up. The difference is that the indians would actually say "Yes, we see UFO's/Aliens/Ghosts/Whatever all the time at this one spot, but we aren't going to show YOU because it's 'sacred land'". lol... After a few years of that and hundreds of convenient claims like that, I'm just not buying it.

I need to start getting back into the paranormal again. I love being a skeptic for that more than I do exposing bogus hair loss people! ...And, paranormal people usually draw the line at trying to destroy the way you pay for your families food and don't make up things to assassinate your character with quite the intensity of people involved in the hair loss industry. lol... That's refreshing.


1...

Actually, Dr. Maricle told me it was very common. I've never tried to google it, though, until two seconds ago and I think it'd be hard to find because it get's buried with lasers actually treating headaches or something.
  • "When all else fails, lie about OverMachoGrande." -observations by Jdp710
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hapyman
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by hapyman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:12 pm

I didn't care too much for the American Indian claims either but I have used other clays and all of them are not created equal. This site was referred to me by someone on another health related board so I tried it out and really liked it. Some have slightly different properties and by most reports calcium bentonite is much better than sodium bentonite. Plus the main reason I was pointing it out was that you really can't beat their quality for the price. I'm all about saving money :D

BTW they claim that the pascalite clay is the only cure for a brown recluse spider. I have never used it for this (thank god) but I did throw a large chunk of this on a wicked mosquito bite (same principal, less toxic venom) on my friends forehead. It was starting to really swell up as there isn't much skin there and we were about to go out to the bars. Anyway about 20 minutes later he wiped it off and it was almost completely gone. If he had left it on for the suggested 40 it probably would've been even better.

Socceroo
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Socceroo » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Hey guys I'd thought I would make my first post here on the forums.

For those that don't know me, I'm David from Australia. I used to post on the old regrowth forums now mainly post on the Immortal Hair forums as Socceroo as well.

Since I have been using Scalpure, I've noticed a 'stinging' type sensation from my laser treatment (which I resumed last week after a months rest). I'm starting to think this is the clays effect on the hair.

In the 5 months of treatment before the lasers had very little impact on my hair, but this could be due to my own stupidity - I was using the helmet every other for for 40 minutes! On nids advice I have now dropped to 3 laser treatments a week for 15 mins and I will assess my results at years end.

Regards,

David

europe
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by europe » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:21 pm

Yeah, when i use clay before lasering, i often experience sort of a tingling sensation on the scalp during few minutes of the treatment. Then it goes away.

Dr. Watt
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Dr. Watt » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:43 pm

Socceroo wrote:Hey guys I'd thought I would make my first post here on the forums.

For those that don't know me, I'm David from Australia. I used to post on the old regrowth forums now mainly post on the Immortal Hair forums as Socceroo as well.

Since I have been using Scalpure, I've noticed a 'stinging' type sensation from my laser treatment (which I resumed last week after a months rest). I'm starting to think this is the clays effect on the hair.

In the 5 months of treatment before the lasers had very little impact on my hair, but this could be due to my own stupidity - I was using the helmet every other for for 40 minutes! On nids advice I have now dropped to 3 laser treatments a week for 15 mins and I will assess my results at years end.

Regards,

David
David, I've done the same. Will be interesting to compare results at the end of the year. Good luck.

Socceroo
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by Socceroo » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:45 pm

Done the same as in similar treatment times?

Should be noted I'm a 24 year old NW3 diffuse thinner.

I have some pictures that we should compare at years end.

Best of luck.

Dave

mj2
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Treatment Regimen: lllt 3x week
curcumin/resveratrol/msm/toco 8 2x day
clay pre-laser
nisoral 1% shampoo
nioxin follical boost post laser

Re: Laser soreness

Post by mj2 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:04 pm

new to LLLT...bought lasermax 80 about 3 weeks ago. It covers front and top with 80 lasers...how many minutes should the exposure time be...I do 25 min every other day with clay beforehand for 40 minutes but I don't feel all that sore until I add the nioxin follical boost, then my scalp feels a tired burn

dmwill
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Treatment Regimen: prox-n

pomegranate 50mg 2x
grape seed extract OPC-95 100mg 1x

nizoral 1%
nano

Re: Laser soreness

Post by dmwill » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:52 pm

Don't know what the professionals recommend but pay attention to scalp inflammation. You can lose more hair to this sometimes than an actual shed. Scalp burn is something that would want to adjust treatment time for until it clears up and things feel normal. Just my 2 cents.

pharma
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by pharma » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:30 am

This product scalpure looks interesting, don't know if the price is motivated by the ingredients though. Any experiences? Or do you think I should go for just the montmorillonite clay and mix it myself?

What is your opinion of hair styling products? After a good wash (and I imagine even more so after you've done one of these clay treatments) at least my hair looks like I've spent a considerable amount of my life in solitude in front of a computer. See, not so cool. You don't look like you're about to enter the stage of Madison Square Garden as leadsinger of The Strokes. (Damn you Julian Casablancas!)

So tell me, how do you (is it even possible to) combine the cleaness and the looks?

Thank you for a fantastic site and all the support you provide.
Cheers!

angstman
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Re: Laser soreness

Post by angstman » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:30 am

bump

any positive results over the past month from those that started using the clay?

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