Anyone thinned out on LLLT on months 4-5 then gained?

[NeverQuit]

Just wondering if any of you experienced fast/major thinning at months 4-5 or so while on LLLT and then had it come back to pre LLLT treatment or better?

Also, would like feedback on those who were either not on propecia/minox during treatment or on them for over 1-2 years before your LLLT to rule that out as a variable.

Just trying to get an idea of what my chances are.


Thanks, NQ

[hapyman]

I lost a fair amount in the early days of LLLT and getting off minox. I haven't gained all of it back YET. I am pretty positive that it is going to all grow back now. Granted I was a slow responder it took me like 10 months to start turning it around.

I have been thinking that perhaps why I was a slow responder was because of magnesium deficiency. Even when using mag oil it can take 3-4 months to get to nominal levels, which kind of coincides with when I started to get results. Hmmmm.

[N0rwgnKid]

You could always be going through a shed you know Dont get your hopes down 4-5 months is not much when it comes to a hair loss treatment anyways. For some reason it seems people around believe lasers should grow hair back after a month or two Have patience man !

[amsch]

Hey Happyman! May I ask you how old you are?

[Dr. Watt]

Just wondering if any of you experienced fast/major thinning at months 4-5 or so while on LLLT and then had it come back to pre LLLT treatment or better?

Also, would like feedback on those who were either not on propecia/minox during treatment or on them for over 1-2 years before your LLLT to rule that out as a variable.

Just trying to get an idea of what my chances are.


Thanks, NQ

I also experienced a lot of shedding between months 4 and 5. I am in month 6 now so unfortunately can't comment yet. But I will be around and wanted to let you know I will be posting experiences. My hope is that I will have something positive by the 10-12 month mark. So far I can't post any noticeable results. However, my shed seemed to have stopped at the end of the 5th month. Hope yours does the same.

[NeverQuit]

I suppose it could be a shed. If it is a shed, it's a huge one I can never tell if I'm shedding as I have very fine short blonde hair so once it falls it's virtually invisible. But really...what else could it be? Can hair really thin that fast? (we're talking an inch back on the temples and from very mild scalp visibility to major).

It's tough, because my only expectations with LLLT was to not further loss and MAYBE get some thickness. I hope it is a major shed, that means in 3 months I should be in good shape!

NQ

[jdp710]

I responded to another post of yours but here is a copy and paste of it here as well as it's important

-------------------------------------------------------------

NeverQuit,

I'm sorry to hear that.

I hate bringing this up as this has been discussed so many times before but I can't help but see how

people who use minoxidil don't get much in results with LLLT.

Sure, you'll get some that do have results doing both but based on testimonials, it appears the ones using minoxidil in conjunction with LLLT seem to have the lowest success rate.

As Jettset said months ago LLLT opens calcium channels,minox is a potassium channels opener and has opposite effect

and if this isn't enough, the testimonials from those using minoxidil and LLLT at the same time the success is much much lower ... more people complaining about a shed, thinning hair, hair still receding, etc..





P.S. Sorry to annoy with the bold and underline but wanted to make it available so others can see. I won't comment anymore on this subject as it always turns ugly. Even the regrowth.com webmaster has his signature of "blame it on the minoxidil" as a cheap shot at people like me who say to be careful using both at same time.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[jdp710]

sorry to do this but one last time ...



LLLT opens calcium channels,minox is a potassium channels opener and has opposite effect

[Dr. Watt]

sorry to do this but one last time ...



LLLT opens calcium channels,minox is a potassium channels opener and has opposite effect

Not having a medical degree I don't understand what this means. What do the potassium channels do wrt to hair growth? This seems very interesting. I am curious on this as I see the laser clinics offering their own versions of minox to use while lasering. I would have expected them to notice if such an incompatibility existed.

Mind you I am not saying it isn't true, but trying to under the science of what you are saying to evaluate.

Thanks

[NeverQuit]

So if this is true, then those of us on LLLT with minox are screwed! Stop taking minox and get a major shed and go bald. Stay on it and get no results from LLLT.

There may be some truth to this, and I really DO want to get off Minox, but every time I present this subject to those who have gone off it while on LLLT, they all regret it as they never returned to that baseline. I have been following all of those on every forum out there who have gone off Minox while doing LLLT and keeping notes. These are my observations of these posters in the last 6-7 months.

1) Go off minox and you will have a major shed as you loose all of your Minox dependent hairs.
2) I never got these hairs back (up to 13 months).
3) What hair you have left will look healthy and thicken.
4) Your new baseline will be set at the next higher NW level.
5) In retrospect I should have just stayed on it.
6) I decided to go back on it.

I understand these subjects may have to give it more time (most are at 8-12 months), but this is the current reality regardless of any other theories.
Out of the 8 people I've followed, I have found 7 of them have had the above feelings on the issue. I have only found one person that was happy going off it, but this person was on minox less than a year and I believe had a transplant as well. So while I do want to get of the minox, the facts, at least from those that post, are that there are more satisfied people that have stayed on minox while doing LLLT than those that have gone off it.

I'm not trying to rehash this whole issue, I'm simply looking for what people have really experienced vs. what should make sense in the lab or on paper.

And yes, I am freaking out a little, as I'm just now crossing over that barrier of being thinning and able to pull it off, to being obviously bald and it has come on very quickly. So take this email from someone freaking out a little bit, who went into LLLT really positive knowing it wasn't going to get any worse and may even get better. I am still very much an LLLT believer, but maybe just not for me.

If I can find just 3 people with pictures on this planet that have gone off Minox and have more hair now than they did while on it using just LLLT, I swear I will go cold turkey off the crap today! SH#T, I MIGHT EVEN CONSIDER JUST 2 PEOPLE!.....Anyone?

[jdp710]

Dr. Watt,

Itchy was the first to notice this when he did 2 years worth of LLLT treatments at a clinic. One year was with minoxidil and the second year without.

Here is some copy and paste information as it's much easier and quicker for me to respond this way as I'm short on time And personally, if anyone does decide to go off minoxidil I'd highly recommend not to go off too fast. I'd personally take 6 months. There have been several people that slowly went off minoxidil over something like a 6 month period and noticed very little shed when using LLLT. The ones that drop it cold turkey will shed "a lot" of hairs very fast.

An alternative is to add topical magnesium chloride with your current routine.

Here is some information regarding minoxidil and magnesium chloride ....

--------------------------------------------

An informative post from hatchet on regrowth.com. He proposed a theory on why minox doesn't work in the long term :

"Taking minox (Loniten) orally causes sodium retention as a side effect. Especially in the context of magnesium-deficient cells, if you think about what Dr. Watts is saying about mag deficiency and hair loss caused by sodium retention, longer term topical minox use may cause increased sodium retention in the hair follicles, just as it causes sodium retention systemically if you take it orally for hypertension.

Oral minox should be supplemented with a diuretic, so maybe topical use should always be used with a topical diuretic, or maybe high doses of vitamin C or some other internal diuretic.

So it's possible that minox-induced regrowth (caused by a reduction in intracellular calcium through potassium channels) is eventually smothered out by the side effect of excess sodium retention. If that happens, just as happens with magnesium deficiency, magnesium-dependent ATP can't keep up with its job of pumping excess sodium (and calcium) out of the cells. Too much calcium or sodium shuts off the cell's energy and the follicles are basically choked off and the hair is miniaturized. In summary, minox grows hair by reducing intracellular calcium, but eventually leads to excess intracellular sodium.

To possibly resolve this, you should replete magnesium levels long term (mag deficiency causes excess intracellular calcium and sodium) and also use a topical diuretic (spiro maybe) with minox, or possibly supplement with high doses of vitamin C, a natural diuretic. Vitamin C topically may also have a diuretic effect, but I haven't researched that aspect. "

"So far, from what i gather, MG promotes hairgrowth the body in 3 ways:
- increase adenosine , a substance which is known to stimulate hair growth, in the body.
- regulate hormone system. So a healthy level of mg in your body will increase the balance of T and DHT in your body, keeping them from going out of whack.
-Pump excess sodium and calcium out of cells ---> creating better environment for stuff like minox to work."

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=78994

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Mg is an essential nutrient responsible for more than 300 hormones, enzymes, etc.

2. Men are not protected from Mg deficiency by estrogen, as women are.

3. Mg deficiency causes too much intracellular calcium, which is or may be related to hypertension, artherosclerosis, heart disease, diabetes, asthma, etc.

4. Mg is tied to calcium. Too much calcium without adequate amounts of magnesium causes calcium to leave bones (influenced by hormone levels affected by Mg) and travel to soft tissues, causing high intracellular calcium, or calcification.

5. MINOXIDIL is a potassium channel opener and works by decreasing intracellular calcium. Though the experts still say they don't know why, this grows hair

6. Magnesium is potassium channel opener/calcium channel blocker. Adequate Mg intake keeps excess calcium in the bones, decreases intracellular calcium and increases intracellular magnesium. This is a natural process when Mg levels are optimal.

7. If MINOXIDIL reduces intracellular calcium, and thereby grows hair, why wouldn't magnesium do the same thing, only better?

8. Without adequate extracellular magnesium, simply reducing intracellular calcium only works to a degree; therefore, you must bring Mg levels up to normal so that the cells can achieve an optimal Ca/Mg ratio with an influx of available Mg. Maybe this is why minox only works for a while and then stops.

9. Look at other purported hair growers like caffeine (at high levels), adenosine, taurine, topical insulin, B6, etc. ALL of these reduce intracellular calcium and/or increase intracellular Mg.

10. Magnesium suppresses PTH (parathyroid hormone) and increases calcitonin. PTH causes hairloss when it is out of balance. Calcitonin keeps calcium in the bones. PTH inhibitors and calcitonin have both been investigated as possible hair growth promoters.

Whew. There is more, but I'm tired and have deadlines to meet. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think magnesium is something that needs to be given a very thorough look.

[Dr. Watt]

Wow! That is quite a writeup! I really appreciate it. Do you have a recommendation from this data on an oral MG or does the data only point to topical MG?

One thing I do find concerning, and may explain the problem of shedding, is the opposing effects of LLLT & Minox. Minox opens Potassium channels and I believe reduces calcium channels (based on your descriptions). LLLT would do the opposite (again based on what I am reading).

If you have been maintaining your hair as a result of Minoxidil, then would not LLLT be the equivalent of quitting Minoxidil since the process of opening the potassium channels has been interrupted?

[NeverQuit]

Jdp...great post- but isn't he speaking of taking minox orally?

If I did go off minox, would you cut back on the dosage or the days applied? Also, where's itchy? I'd love to get some more details on his experience.

I'm currently taking just 1mm am. Would you go .5 am for a month or two, 1mm every other day, skip laser days....etc...

[1.....]

Hey jdp,

I am getting proper amounts of mag from mag oil topically. Is it still important to get some calcium in your body? Bc I no longer drink milk so what are otehr good ways to get a recommended dose of calcium in your body?

[jdp710]

Depends on your metabolic type.

For me, I see literally no change taking calcium supplements and therefore I don't take them. Well, I shouldn't say don't take them as I'll take the occasional Coral Calcium pill but I don't focus on calcium one bit. I do focus on Vitamin D, K2/probiotics, Boron, magnesium, weight lifting, etc. though. I've said it a couple times before but I do believe that calcium is extremely overrated for a lot of people. Also, keep in mind that pasteurized milk is an extremely poor source of calcium.

Here is some info

===============================================================================================

Traditionally consumed milk is likely not helpful in improving bone density as it is pasteurized. The pasteurization process causes severe distortion of essential nutrients, nutrients that are likely useful at optimizing bone density


Certain metabolic types naturally require higher amounts of calcium in their diet in order to function optimally, and tend to have sufficient synergistic nutrients but lack sufficient calcium. But other metabolic types have the opposite biochemical balance: these metabolic types tend to already have high calcium but are low in the synergistic nutrients, thereby doing well on diets lower in calcium and higher in the synergistic nutrients.

Thus, only the metabolic types (parasympathetics, fast oxidizers or anabolic dominants) that are actually deficient in calcium benefit from calcium supplementation.

The other metabolic types (sympathetics, slow oxidizers or catabolic dominants) who already have enough, or excess, calcium in the body but lack the synergistic nutrients will worsen their condition by calcium supplementation by creating an even greater biounavailability through further depleting synergistic nutrient stores.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... bones.aspx


-----------------------------------------------

in a Parasympathetic (alkaline) Metabolic Type, calcium is acidifying, but in a Fast Oxidizer, calcium is alkalinizing. So, it is important that an acid form of calcium (e.g., calcium chloride) be used if you’re an alkaline Parasympathetic type metabolizer, but that an alkaline form of calcium (calcium citrate) be used if you’re an acidic Fast Oxidizer.

Taking too much calcium can actually cause osteoporosis (in order for calcium to be utilized, it needs certain synergistic nutrients and if you are already low in those synergistic nutrients, taking more calcium will only further deplete the existing deficient levels, worsening any problems relating to calcium metabolism).

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... -diet.aspx

[jdp710]

I just wanted to say that I'll be gone for a bit to catch up on "a lot" of work. If I don't get around to answering any questions you'll know why ...

[jksl]

n/m

[dmwill]

Has anyone really gained at all? I mean it just seams like people shed and then get back what they shed. Seems to me kind of useless. The science seems right but the results are lacking. We know it darkens the grey hair, and gives younger appearance, but does it really give anything worth mentioning? You can get these effects from taking ALA or SOD antioxidants. I don't know that you are getting that much more of a benefit from this.

[hapyman]

Has anyone really gained at all? I mean it just seams like people shed and then get back what they shed. Seems to me kind of useless. The science seems right but the results are lacking. We know it darkens the grey hair, and gives younger appearance, but does it really give anything worth mentioning?

How would this be useless if it prevents any further loss after the fact then? Personally I have completely stopped shedding except the occasional minorone, which seems more like natural loss than anything else. If I keep heading in the direction I am then I will be more than happy to end up back at baseline and then maintain. It would prevent me from going totally cueball like the rest of my family and prevent me from shaving my head.

[LaserKid]

Agreed. I think if you go into any treatment expecting to get regrowth you are setting your expectations too high. If you are slowing down your hairloss then great, if you stop your hairloss altogether then that's amazing. Anything on top of that is a bonus IMO.

Apparently you don't even notice hairloss until 50% of your hair on your scalp has gone. The best lasers can do is regrow 20% back if you are lucky (I read it somewhere, can't remember where) .... so even if you start lasers at the 50% mark, the best you can get is 70%.

Tbh, I'd be ecstatic if I could get to 70%, hell, I'd be extremely happy if I could hold onto the 50%!

[hapyman]

And who really knows if the growth from LLLT doesn't continue year after year. The longest study is only 12 months. I could imagine that 5 years of LLLT will bring great things.

[Calbruin]

Hi all,
I never post but I thought now would be a good time considering the lack of positive testomonial on this thread (although I can recall reading hundreds of posts on the positive testomonial thread).

Its been two and a half months on lasers and my results have been nothing short of amazing. I have been treating my hairloss for two years and I have never seen this much regrowth from anything else. At one and a half months my hair stopped failling out. I noticed that my scalp had become increasingly thicker. Over the last month thousands of small hairs have become visible and hundreds have become terminal. I feel fortunate that I have finally found something that is working to bring back my hairline that I had at 21 ( I am now 26). I can't imagine how much my hairline is going to change over the next 6 months and I don't want to get too excited, but the results thus far have been unlike anything I have ever witnessed. I use propecia, minox ( once at night), and laser 3 days x 20 mins a week with OMG's messiah. Goodluck to everyone.

Calbruin

[jksl]

how long have you been on minox and propecia? and are you a diffuse thinner?

[robster]

Sounds very encouraging! How many diodes is on your OMG helmet? Just curious do you wash your hair pre-lasering and are you using any type of clay or a pre- laser topical?

Hi all,
I never post but I thought now would be a good time considering the lack of positive testomonial on this thread (although I can recall reading hundreds of posts on the positive testomonial thread).

Its been two and a half months on lasers and my results have been nothing short of amazing. I have been treating my hairloss for two years and I have never seen this much regrowth from anything else. At one and a half months my hair stopped failling out. I noticed that my scalp had become increasingly thicker. Over the last month thousands of small hairs have become visible and hundreds have become terminal. I feel fortunate that I have finally found something that is working to bring back my hairline that I had at 21 ( I am now 26). I can't imagine how much my hairline is going to change over the next 6 months and I don't want to get too excited, but the results thus far have been unlike anything I have ever witnessed. I use propecia, minox ( once at night), and laser 3 days x 20 mins a week with OMG's messiah. Goodluck to everyone.

Calbruin

[Calbruin]

Hi,
I am a diffuse thinner, but that problem has been completely eliminated. I don't use any special wash or clays prior to using lasers, although my hair is always damp. I believe my helmet has 210 diodes.

Calbruin

[Dr. Watt]

I would really...really love to hear some comments from folks that shedded a great deal in the first 5 - 6 months of lasering and then made a comeback (orginal context of this thread). At this point I would be very happy just to get that hair back! I am very concerned that it won't happen as I am not seeing many posters indicate they made a comeback after this period.

I am trying to talk myself into believing that the lasers triggered the Telogen phase for a great number of my hairs and that the time for them to come back could be as much as 3 months. I have no idea if this is true because information is conflicting on this. However, the threads on LLLT have been going on for well over a year and I would expect if this is really true then many folks would have followed a reaction very similar to mine. If so, I would imagine they are still posting.

Any long-term users out there that can relate to the experiences being shared by many?

Thanks

[Joe Public]

I've been using a Lasermax 50 for a year along with minox and propecia for two years. I never really noticed a shed until I began using the LLLT.

I usually have a shed every three months or so with improvement after every one. It's sort of a two-step-forward-one-step-back process. You just have to ride it out.

If you look at the Lasermax website they mention shedding in their "what to expect" section.

[LaserKid]

I'm no expert on lasers, but I have read quite a bit of the posts over at the hairmax forum. Seems that a lot of people go through something v similar. Initial gains followed by increased shedding. If I was you (and it's what I'm gonna do when I start) I would've counted the number of hairs you shed per day, by for example brushing your hair vigorously in the morning before showering and counting the hairs that fall. Do this e.g. once/twice a week for a month so you get a baseline count before starting lasers and then continue it into the laser treatment. That way you will know for certain whether you are indeed shedding more. I would also take a ratio of terminal:vellus hairs. If you are shedding vellus hairs (easy to spot because they are thin and %&$! and taper towards the end) then good thing, means lasers are working. If you are shedding lots of terminal hairs, bad thing, and prob means you are bioinhibiting.

This could be explained by the inflammation theory. Initially, your hair cells are surrounded by inflammation, due to DHT upregulating proinflammatory genes. After a while of laser use, the inflammation subsides, hence increasing the penetration of laser light to the hair cells. Thus laser light which is beneficial in the early stages, which may be in the photobiostimulation range, may be pushed into the bioinhibitory range when the inflammation subsides, due to increased laser penetration, if that makes sense!

This is only a theory, but IMO, if you are losing a lot of terminal hairs, that is a bad thing. If my theory is correct, then you may benefit from a reduced treatment time.

[LaserKid]

Bottom line is look at the hairs you are shedding. Don't look at them in the shower when they are wet, but when they are dry. Look at the ends. You will see that from areas where there is mpb, the hairs taper, i.e. get thinner towards the ends, and this is the earliest sign that there is increased cycling of the hairs and the beginning of the miniturization process (bad news). Good news, those follicles haven't fully given up hope, so are save-able. They have tapered ends because they aren't cut when you go for a haircut, unlike the hairs on the side. Obviously, this is only visible if you have moderate length hair. If you are shedding lots of hairs with tapered ends at the beginning of treatment, good news, it's prob working. If you shed a lot after a few years of treatment (like me with Fin) bad news, means your treatment isn't working and the cycling process is accelerating.

Also, they may not necessarily be thin. I shed a lot of hairs and think %&$!, I'm shedding some pretty thick hairs there, then look closer and realise that they are mpb hairs with %&$! thin tapered ends, but thick shafts. So it can be a bit misleading.

[Dr. Watt]

I've been using a Lasermax 50 for a year along with minox and propecia for two years. I never really noticed a shed until I began using the LLLT.

I usually have a shed every three months or so with improvement after every one. It's sort of a two-step-forward-one-step-back process. You just have to ride it out.

If you look at the Lasermax website they mention shedding in their "what to expect" section.

JP that sounds encouraging. So I am ending month 6 with my laser helmet. I have shed from about month 3 to now. Not so much shedding going on now but the damage is done. Do you remember how long after your sheds that you notice improvement? Would you say that after a year with your LaserMax you are in better shape than when you started (or at least equivalent)?

Thanks again

[Dr. Watt]

Bottom line is look at the hairs you are shedding. Don't look at them in the shower when they are wet, but when they are dry. Look at the ends. You will see that from areas where there is mpb, the hairs taper, i.e. get thinner towards the ends, and this is the earliest sign that there is increased cycling of the hairs and the beginning of the miniturization process (bad news). Good news, those follicles haven't fully given up hope, so are save-able. They have tapered ends because they aren't cut when you go for a haircut, unlike the hairs on the side. Obviously, this is only visible if you have moderate length hair. If you are shedding lots of hairs with tapered ends at the beginning of treatment, good news, it's prob working. If you shed a lot after a few years of treatment (like me with Fin) bad news, means your treatment isn't working and the cycling process is accelerating.
.

Laserkid, I know what you mean about the Fin. I started taking it way back in 1997. At the 2 year mark I had reversed a great deal of loss. But then at about month 5 the efficiency began to fade. I gradually increased the dosage until I reach 2.5 mg/day. I don't dare go beyond that. But I think my body has adjusted and the real benefits aren't there.

The first sheds seem to be going after the vellus and finer hairs like you describe. Unfortunately, my frontal hair is full of these types of hairs. I think the Minox allowed me to keep these much longer than I probably normally would. They don't grow much but they help with density. These are being killed during this shed so the result is really noticeable. The hairs on the temples are basically gone. I am really hoping that most of these shed hairs come back.

I think there is something to your theory on too much stimulation. This month I have begun to cut back my usage time to 20 mins every 3 days. This also may be too much stimulation. I don't know. I was thinking abou taking a few days off this week just to give them a break but I don't know if that will just hurt my chances of getting the hairs going again.

A lot of trial and error going on here. It helps to compare with what others are seeing.

Thanks

[Joe Public]

I've been using a Lasermax 50 for a year along with minox and propecia for two years. I never really noticed a shed until I began using the LLLT.

I usually have a shed every three months or so with improvement after every one. It's sort of a two-step-forward-one-step-back process. You just have to ride it out.

If you look at the Lasermax website they mention shedding in their "what to expect" section.

JP that sounds encouraging. So I am ending month 6 with my laser helmet. I have shed from about month 3 to now. Not so much shedding going on now but the damage is done. Do you remember how long after your sheds that you notice improvement? Would you say that after a year with your LaserMax you are in better shape than when you started (or at least equivalent)?

Thanks again

Hey Dr. Watt, yes, I would say I am definitely better than when I started. I shed about every three months or so and then it would improve.

Hang in there. Just remember, if LLLT was a bunch of mularkey, why would you even shed?

Shedding is a good sign. That means it is doing something.

I was doing three 30-minute sessions a week but now I am doing four 20-minutes sessions.

Some of the other stuff I do, besides the LLLT, Fin, Minox, is I use an olive oil and lemon juice scalp massage. Some of the laser clinics do that to detoxify the scalp.

Since I am over 40 I use emu oil and a copper peptice concentrate from Isomers to fight wrinkles but I also use it on my scalp several times a week.

Also, I would also recommend Nizoral shampoo if you haven't been using it.

Best, JP

[robster]

I pretty new to LLLT but I do feel personally that 20 minutes in a session may be too long for some people, I think it is for me anyway. Ive tried the 3 x 20 minute a week sessions and also 10 - 12 minutes day on, day on, then rest day idea. I think the latter is better for me. Everybody is going to react diffirent to LLLT and I think many of those who are complaining of big sheds are just overstimulating there hair too much, people may need to play around with LLLT times much more to find what works for them. Just my thoughts anyway.

I think there is something to your theory on too much stimulation. This month I have begun to cut back my usage time to 20 mins every 3 days. This also may be too much stimulation. I don't know. I was thinking abou taking a few days off this week just to give them a break but I don't know if that will just hurt my chances of getting the hairs going

[Dr. Watt]

Bottom line is look at the hairs you are shedding. Don't look at them in the shower when they are wet, but when they are dry. Look at the ends. You will see that from areas where there is mpb, the hairs taper, i.e. get thinner towards the ends, and this is the earliest sign that there is increased cycling of the hairs and the beginning of the miniturization process (bad news).

I know what you mean LaserKid. These hairs are entering the minaturization process and I have quite a few of these on my head as I am a diffusely thinning. This is my greatest concern with using the lasers. LLLT seems particularly harsh on these hairs when it comes to shedding. What I am seeing is the more miniaturized hairs were the ones shed first followed by the next longer ones. I will keep an eye out for terminal hairs that are increasing in number as I have not been looking for them prior.