Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Discuss the use of laser therapy for fighting hair loss. If you're using a purchased device, or a laserbrush or helmet that you've made yourself, discuss it here.

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hairjunkie
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Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by hairjunkie » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:36 am

Hi Guys,

I am new member here. I've been suffering from hair loss since 6-7 years now and its getting worse. I have been taking Finastride (Finepecia) and Rogaine (on and off). I was just going on with the life by covering the bald spot but its becoming more obvious now. Hence, I decided to explore some laser options. I've been reading all about LLLT since last two weeks on forums and OMG's site (which is great btw, very informative and helpful).
I understand that getting a full coverage with helmet is the best way to go rather than brushes. I am not willing to make one myself at this point but rather willing to spend around 1000 bucks. From what I have read and understood Lasermax 110 from [url]http: //www.professionalhairlaser.com/[/url] is good value for money. It gives 110x5mw = 550mW output and is covers the entire scalp conveniently.
Other option I am considering is the Laserfish Mini lasestand. This one has 12 powerful lasers with 60mW output. Hence, total output is 12x60mW=720mW. http://www.lllt-therapy.com/Products.html.
The major difference is number of lasers and their power. I am confused if I should go for less number of lasers that are more powerful or the other way. I like to beleive the Konflac theory that more mW on the lasers equal better results. But I havent read any studies proving this. Let me know if there are any studies done on this.
Overall-lasermax looks more convenient to use, you can just sit under it and forget it. Pricewise, there is $200 difference between the two (lasermax- less expensive). I like to beleive the Konflac theory that more mW on the lasers equal better results. Let me know if there are any studies done on this.
Experts please help solve my confusion in choosing between these two. If there are similiar products out there, kindly post it. Also, let me know if I need to change the regimen of finastride and rogain (shampoo suggestions, etc.)

-Hairjunkie

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OverMachoGrande
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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by OverMachoGrande » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:16 am

Hey, Hairjunkie!

I'm going to address one part of your post:
I like to beleive the Konflac theory that more mW on the lasers equal better results. But I havent read any studies proving this. Let me know if there are any studies done on this.
That is a sales gimmick only. PERIOD! There is no reason that more mW would give better results, and actually... there are plenty of things that show that tissue reacts WORSE to higher than 5mW diodes, for example:
Power density from 2 to 5 mW is adequate to activate mammalian chromophores. Power higher than 5 mW may exceed the activation levels of some chromophores. The greatest biomodulation is created with repeated doses of pulsed collimated laser light at or around 5 mW of power.

...In conclusion, for safe and effective light therapy, the ideal therapy device should be a low powered (between 2 and 5 mW), laser (capable of producing collimated and coherent light), which produces wavelength between 600 than 720 nm, and is capable of rapidly delivering pulsed frequencies to tissue.

http://www.lazrpulsr.com/pdf/Article17505.pdf
Also, there are plenty of things that point to increased results with INCREASED TIMES OF EXPOSURE. If you have a stronger diode, you have to use it LESS or you will cause bioinhibition. For example:
“The SOD activity, first of all, depends on irradiation time, but not on intensity or wavelength of irradiation.”

http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet/Ge ... s&gifs=yes
So, this shows that you get MORE S.O.D. -one of the crucial keys to positive benefits of laser therapy- with GREATER exposure times. This means that (in addition to greater likelihood of bioinhibition) you get less beneficial chemicals with higher than 5mW diodes! You use stronger diodes for less time, therefore you get less positive chemicals.

There is much more than just these two examples, yet a company makes one fancy graph with out any science behind it and people think it makes sense -when it flies against science. lol... That always makes me laugh!

I believe it's a fallacy of human nature to think that something stronger must work better. Look at minox... companies rushed out and made 12.5% and 15% solutions, and if you read the forum reviews from real people that aren't company plants, you'll realize that they are HORRIBLE for people's hair! But yet... people think that since those numbers are higher than 5%, it must work better and they keep getting new customers (for a month or two).

I actually think that the best laser device on the planet would be a helmet with 1mW or 2mW diodes. So, that's the OTHER DIRECTION than you'd think! The catch would be that you'd have to use it for an hour or longer, and that's why I don't think it'd catch on -but I do think it would be the best by far, especially if it pulsed (we are working on that, too). I will experiment with this in the future, but in the meantime... don't fall for sales pitches! lol... That Konftec graphic is BUNK.

Use what laser device you want to, but don't make the mistake of looking at the OMG page and all of the MANY postitive laser testimonials from the forums as a "cart before the horse" thing. We figured out the science behind it, then made designs to fit not only what science said SHOULD WORK the best, but worked the best based on user trail and error. What we found matched up with the science. There really weren't any surprises to this.

Be very, very skeptical of any company that says "5mW diodes DON'T work" -something both of them have said- when 5mW.650nm diodes have the highest amount of results with anything in recent hair loss forum history. That's their hubris speaking, and they are treating consumers like idiots -and you like a chump- when they do that.

-O.M.G.
  • "When all else fails, lie about OverMachoGrande." -observations by Jdp710
Build the most effective laser device in the world at http://www.overmachogrande.com...

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by OverMachoGrande » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:42 am

Oh, by the way... I think they would still work. Not as well as some, but the fact is probably just about any milliwatt or nanometer in the red range will fight hair loss to some extent. I just get fed up with people like Konftec and Gaunitz stating that the other ones AREN'T as effective as their's (or not effective at all), and they offer zero proof of that (because there is none, and actually the proof is on the side of 5mW/650nm).

So, for whatever reason they are plugging their diodes, more than likely because less higher powered diodes are a crapload easier to wire than a crapload of 5mW ones, and they are trying to justify their decision by LYING TO YOU! lol... I've even got an email from one of the people discussed in this tread saying that it has to do with design simplicity, not effectiveness. So... that should pretty much settle that.

Good luck!

-O.M.G.
  • "When all else fails, lie about OverMachoGrande." -observations by Jdp710
Build the most effective laser device in the world at http://www.overmachogrande.com...

hairjunkie
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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by hairjunkie » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:26 pm

Thanks OMG for the quick reply. I guess thats one page you can add on your website comparing the effectiveness of 2-5mW v/s high powered lasers. (Maybe you have it and I overlooked it !). I think your site is pretty comprehensive in covering all information/concerns regarding LLLT.
We do tend to think naturally that high power means more effective. I'll try to some more study on this. I am more leaning towards getting a Lasermax 110.

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by hapyman » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:57 pm

I see that OMG isn't going to do it so let me do it for him. If I had $1000 to invest in a helmet I would have him make it for me. There is no way that the lasermax or lazerfish devices could hold a match to a helmet with 300+ 5mW diodes. OMGs design is also better because it guarantees uniform distance between the diodes and your scalp and ultimately will give you the best coverage.

Right now I am using a cluster I made that I have to move 3 times for every treatment. A helmet would definitely be ideal.

hairjunkie
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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by hairjunkie » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:08 pm

Thanks for the guidance hapyman. I thought the same thing. I actually did pm OMG few hours back to find out if he can make me one. From his site, I thought he just made the helmets (without the lasers) and getting the lasers/wiring them is left to us. But I figure he does sell the whole thing.
OMG, please reply to my pm at your convenience regarding making one laser helmet for me.

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by hapyman » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:45 am

Yeah he only does it for those not willing to undergo it themselves. For what he charges it is a steal.

persiameneses
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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by persiameneses » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:42 pm

thanks for posting here your impression to OMG. I was thinking of inquiring myself, but looks he's a fraud?

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by Jacob » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:27 am

I wouldn't call him a fraud..just a little too excited about certain things that don't always add up.

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by Fizzball » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:00 am

From what I understand about OMG as that he was/is very passionate about his work and research, I don't think he tried to swindle anyone out of the money.

As far as LLLT is concerned I can not give you any first hand experience responses or testimonials but I do know that the FDA has put it under review several times and have given it approval however what that approval pertains to I am not sure. My understanding of LLLT is that it is a long term device that from all indications takes a long period of time to see the results.
There are very few people that have actually stuck to it for a long period of time, OMG has kept at it for several years and although he has had a transplant he still believes that LLLT has been a great aid to him and further supported his recovery from his hair transplant.

At the end of the day the choice is yours and if I could afford such a device and it were some over the counter purchase I would give it a try after all I sit on my computer for more than 15 minutes a day so I could definitely fit it into my regular day to day life.
Don't mistake my optimism for stupidity

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Re: Laserfish v/s Lasermax Laser Stand

Post by future is with LLLT » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:46 pm

This is sensible thread...
Laserfish of blowfish (same?) is not a bad product per se...
I would not say the same about Lasermax - its shape cannot cover all of your head effectively.

Both devices do have diode spacing in such a way that the diodes are simply too far apart.

a bit of science, don't get bored too much...

clinical studies and trials (Google it) agree that ideal deep tissue stimulation delivered to a skin area daily should be around 4J/cm2 This equals to 1 laser diode with 5mW rating applied to 1cm2 of affected area of scalp for 20 minutes - daily

All laser diodes are manufactured almost equally and will cover 1cm2 of scalp from a distance of approx. 15mm - when diffused and that's how they should be....
Norwood 7 baldness area (my calcs) is approx. 280-300cm2 - this means that if you want to spend only 20 minutes with your LLLT device - it must have around 300 diodes...that's is a simple math. - you could do same with half the diodes but twice the time but the spacing must be the same so you would have it on 2 areas separately = that is 40 minutes every day?? - do you want to do that?

there are so many silly laser toys on the market it is NOT funny. People are getting ripped off right and left every day...this should be banned...!!
Especially laser combs - this is outrageous... all with their medical trials and approvals and legal to sell...

How can anyone tell me that laser comb with 1 or 2 diodes that coveres barely 4cm2 of my scalp used 20 minutes will do anything for my hair loss - and people still buy it today..some people just can't be helped..

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