Happy Anniversary!

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OverMachoGrande
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Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:32 pm

Happy Anniversary!

October marks the ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY of the release of the blockbuster video, "Why LLLT CAN'T Work", which was made by a someone we will call "Dr. XXXXXX". That's right, it's the one year anniversary of tremendous forum DISINFORMATION.

Why the "XXXXXX"? Because this doctor and his video was so severely discredited and destroyed by us that he will threaten to sue everyone here that's reading this if his name isn't blocked! lol...

Unfortunately that thread isn't around anymore -and if you read my last sentence, you understand why. Honestly... last year was a real growing point for me because until that point, I had never seen such unethical, fraudulent behavior from a REAL PERSON before! I just couldn't believe what was going on, and yep... I really learned something about what is really the driving force behind a lot of forum posts.

We've overcome A LOT since then. It was really an amazing triumph when we annihilated something that was clearly unethical, wrong, unscientific, etc., and unfortunately a lot of us that played the role in reducing that video to nothing but hot air based on junk science don't post much these days. A lot of us have had amazing results and have moved on, but a lot of us are also working on something very important to the hair loss consumer that will be unveiled sometime in the near future. That's where we've been... resting up for an onslaught that's going to attempt to attract the people that aren't attracted to and DON'T post in these forums.

It's going to solve a lot of problems... problems that frankly need solving. There isn't a lot of accountability in these places. Here's what I'm talking about: it wouldn't be a shock if that same Dr. XXXXXX would be actively involved in helping the recent outbreak of "oh my gosh my hair is falling out from these laser helmets". Well, anyone in the REAL WORLD would say that "Wait a minute... if 'LLLT CAN'T WORK' because it can't penetrate the skin's 'optical barrier', then how could it cause a shed?" But this isn't the real world... logic like that is given a pass because in a forum environment where there are no leaders that consistently FIGHT fraud with truth, the one that has the loudest, most repetitive voice wins (like posting multiple threads on the same things, etc).

So, you need a place to store the truth so people CAN NOT SKIRT IT as soon as the people that know what they are talking about are on hiatus. You need something that provides "direction" so people can actually be helped and several people with lord knows what motives can't steer the conversation to where they want it to go. Not to put too much importance on what I did as moderator, but I don't think some of you realize the level at which I was fighting to keep that place clean -at risk to my own credibility. From what it looked like to me and the 20 or so guys I regularly speak to, I think that once we were gone, some of you other guys assumed that "Oh, these scalpure guys must be legit", or "This laser diode huckster must know what he's talking about" because there was a serious lack of judgment that took us back 5 years.

I'll give you some examples. It's only been about two months since me and some others have been in this 'hiatus', and already several embarrassing things have happened in the forums that I'm aware of, and I hope you can laugh at them, too -at least now!

1) The 635nm diode sales pitch.

Yep, some hit and run poster came in and posted one thing about 635nm diodes and how they were vastly superior, and judging by my email... the forum world came unraveled. People fell for this hook, line, and sinker, and didn't even pay attention to the fact that they guy had an internet marketing site.

If anyone happens to run across that post again, I hope now that you look back on it, the "61 diodes are the maximum for blonde hair" can be LAUGHED AT BY EVERYONE! lol.... That number means NOTHING without a time variable and without the spacing, yet people just ASSUMED that "61" must be true.

Here is the truth about Gaunitz's machines... I forgot the name of the brand they are, and I'm not going to bother looking them up because it will be catalogued soon enough for all of us to see, but they are MODIFIED PAIN MACHINES. They use 635nm diodes simply because they decided to use 635nm diodes for the pain machines. THERE WAS NO GREAT RESEARCH FOR HAIR LOSS. It was a modified machine to fit a different need, and that's it.

Here's the truth about Gaunitz's machines success rates... they are GOOD! Why are they good? Two reasons... 1) they know what the hell they are doing in terms of things like CLEAING THE SCALP, PRE-LASER TOPICALS, etc., and 2) they PULSE. So, pay attention... It's funny how the main thing that these machines do to get decent results were left out of the guys sales pitch, huh? Why? Because we can replicate that part... we can't replicate his "MAGIC DIODES" that only he has access to and are ultra-expensive!

If you've read any of my posts on getting our devices to pulse, then you know where we stand on it. If not... lord knows I've spoken about pulsing diodes enough, and you need to do your homework!

Now, here's the truth about the 635nm diodes... most 5mW diodes anywhere in the red and near infrared wavelength WILL WORK. That's right. Most will work. There is some scientific data that I'm not going to pull up (because it will be storehoused later in a permanent spot that everyone can see) that shows that I think 660nm or 670nm is a sweet spot to get the greatest biostimulation, but the fact is that pretty much ANY DIODE IN THIS RANGE OF WAVELENGTH WILL HAVE A POSITIVE EFFECT ON HAIR.

So, why do we use 650?? COST. Flat out COST. It's a lot cheaper to make a 650nm diode because of the "ingredients" used to make it, and there isn't any real, quantifiable difference in the results between 635, 650, 700, etc., so most people use 650. THAT IS THE REAL REASON.

So, that's point number one, and I want to remind everyone that the data at http://www.overmachogrande.com has NOT CHANGED, the positive testimonials list gets bigger, and the laws of physics and chemistry haven't changed over the past eight weeks, either.

2) The Higher Powered Diode pitch.

Yep, this comes up again... and again... and again... and again... and it's no secret why. It's being PUSHED. There have been higher powered diode devices used A LOT in the forums -most notably the Aculas- and the results in the forums were slim pickins. Guys... they were tried and done, and they were phased out by the last generation (meaning posters a couple of years ago). How that get's lost and forgotten is beyond me.

Here's the truth about higher powered diodes: The WORK. Like I said, pretty much any diode will work if used right. However, there is SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that shows that 1) diodes OVER 5mW in strength give LESS of a favorable biostimulatory response, and 2) the LONGER you use a device -but still don't overdo it- the better. Yes, I have the scientific proof of that, we've posted it, and I'm not going to waste my time posting it here again because it's going to be in it's permanent spot soon.

Here's the LIE about higher powered diodes: Anyone that says they don't reach the follicles or don't work as well as 5mW diodes is lying. Flat out lie. Nothing supports that -not practical experiences from forum users and not scientific data, and there is ample evidence to support the other.

Here's the truth about higher powered diode DEVICES compared to full coverage devices: I don't need to explain that one. The whole reason helmets are successful are because of the COVERAGE, COVERAGE, COVERAGE. You can't do that evenly with any handheld. There is NO COMPETITION HERE -at all. That's why they resort to unethical behavior, slander, word twisting -duh!

Here's where higher powered diodes "shine": They are quicker. "Quicker" is NOT better than "longer" here, but sometime you just can't damn use a handheld for 400 minutes a night like you'd have to in order to get 6 joules. Plus, they are a great travel device, and frankly I'll probably get one sometime just for that purpose since I have an opportunity to once again return to a job that involves travel.

Once again... the data at http://www.overmachogrande.com has not changed, and the laws of physics over the past eight weeks haven't changed either, and anyone that conveniently wants to talk about their device while shutting out the positive testimonials and pretending that they don't exist shouldn't be trusted.

3) The "20 minutes is too long" scare.

Twenty minutes is the proper time for diffused diodes the height of a brush bristle, and that's the end of it. This has been confirmed not only repeatedly by me and others, not only by laser physicists, but has shown the absolute best results period from the do-it-yourselfers.

So, how and why did this disinformation get started?? One needs to look no further than the SOURCE of this, which were two people with vested interests in pushing laser brushes. In fact, one of these people is a forum owner that outright lied and said "I think even Dr. Maricle said 20 minutes was too long", with, of course, another certain unethical poster chiming in to add fake support to that claim. Dr. Maricle, of course, didn't say that.

I can't point to a scientific paper here, but I'll tell you the truth based on everything that I've seen over the past year and nine months that you can look up yourself... you piss around with a crappy device or use a helmet for 10 minutes, and you aren't going to get good results. From 10 minutes to 20 minutes, it's a slope UP with results, with 20 minutes being BY FAR the best. If you use it over 20 minutes, you're screwed, JACK. When I see people saying "Yeah, I've been using it 20-25 minutes...", I don't give a damn what they say next. They missed the most important part of this, and I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would bump the time over 20 minutes.

Jeez... 25 minutes and you are getting 25% TOO MUCH with these helmets! I don't know where people get this from. Human nature, I guess, to always want to keep pushing things?? Well, LLLT isn't like other things... it's not like drinking a six pack of beer and getting buzzed, and adding another beer or two and getting more buzzed. It's like drinking a six pack of beer, getting buzzed, then adding two and you're dead. I hope that help clears it up.

Also, it seems to me that the people rushing to do 12-15 minutes (where the hell did those numbers come from, anyway?!) were the people doing it TOO LONG in the first place. Please don't make me say "Two wrongs don't make a right". UGH! I said it...

So, once again... black, white, blonde, brunette, use it 20 minutes. 300 diodes, 6 million diodes, infinity diodes... as long as they are spaced PROPERLY, 20 MINUTES! Some people take longer than others... 20 minutes! I could post the formula here, but I'm not. It will be permanently stored soon enough.

Once again... the data didn't change at http://www.overmachogrande.com, and neither did the laws of physics and chemistry over the past eight weeks.


4) Hardheadedness about the other "LASER PROTOCOLS".

We covered the time aspect.

Why do some people still not shower before laser therapy?? We have undisputed proof and a million forum posts that show that clean/wet skin is a MUST with this! Without clean/wet skin, lasers bounce off of the surface! Nope, not going to post the proof here tonight... I'm going to save that for when it's at it's permanent location so no one ever has to search for it again.

Why isn't EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU using a pre-shower topical?? I've gone on and on about not only have I used a preshower topical (polysorbate 80/ethyl alcohol) the ENTIRE ALMOST TWO YEARS THAT I'VE DONE LLLT, but I've spoken a lot recently about using the bentonite clay as a pre-shower topical -and I've stated that it blows the poly 80 away. EVERYONE SHOULD BE DOING THIS.

If I couldn't take a shower or couldn't apply my preshower topical before I used my LLLT, I'd probably put it off until when I could. Literally... I've done these things all but maybe four or five times out of the couple of hundred times I've used my helmet.

Does anyone need any more reasons not to use minox?

5) The SHEDDING SCARE of SEPTEMBER!

Guys... shedding happens. I'll flat out say it up front here, though: NO, shedding does NOT happen like pictures that were recently posted due to LLLT alone, or if it did in this case, it's an isolated instance that just statistically is NOTHING TO FEAR with anybody else, and after hundreds of helmets sold on my part and hundreds more that I know about -the shedding scares are pretty much isolated to the FEW people that are over-and-over speaking up about it in this forum -which is a tiny percentage. Like I said, that guy needs to see a doctor, and the others... yeah, you guys are being really loud about it, and I wish I new what to tell you, but I do have the history on pretty much all of you and I keep seeing things like "teetering with quitting minox" and "using it for 25 minutes", and one of you is freaking using a LASERMAX 50, BUT THAT NEVER GETS MENTIONED. I'm not trying to say that your shedding isn't legitimate, but what I am doing is ending the panic about it... because it's nonsense.

What's really funny is that if you were on PROPECIA and went to a PROPECIA BOARD like HLT and HLH and spoke up with the exact same scenario, you'd have people coming out of the woodwork saying "That's ok, that's a sign that it's working.", but you don't have that with lasers because there is such an effort to cause confusion about it -and that's not me making it up, look at the transparent shill that was all too eager to jump in about it! Yep, all too eager, and no one with any sort of forum experience pays two seconds attention to that.


So, here's the truth about shedding: shedding happens. Yes, that sucks, and it's a real concern, but I've gotten a lot of emails from people that are having perfectly good results wondering if it's going to happen to them, and that's what has finally made me make these posts.

I'll make another point about it, and this is the truth about shedding. GOD HATES US. Yep, GOD MUST HATE THOSE OF US WITH MPB, because as soon as something WORKS, we all get a shed. For some stupid reason, for tellagen hairs to go back to anagen, they've got to fall out first and make us look worse.

To add insult to injury, there is often a TIME DELAY involved. For example, just Monday I got an email from a poster in here that last month was dead ass sure that LLLT must be making his hair fall out -because of the scare created here, I'm assuming. Well, this new email that I got was said "I think the shed was just a coincidence and was not induced by the treatment". Ya think?! lol... Well, that's certainly a change, isn't it, and that's what I'm talking about.

Example number two... for those of you on my facebook page, you can see that someone posted a positive testimonial last week. Yeah, we get those all the time, so why is HE important? I'll tell you why... this guy had a hell of a time for I think almost A YEAR AND A HALF. Turns out that he had quit either minox, propecia, or both a few months before he started his laser treatment. Of course, he left that out, and that's sort of a greater point I'm making here, but I digress. Anyway, he was having massive shedding forEVER. Down in the dumps, feeling horrible, etc. Finally he told me that and I set him straight about what was causing it. He hung in there and it went away. HOWEVER... he still didn't get results. Month after month, he didn't get results. Well, he finally shared that with me, and when I asked him how he was using it... wouldn't you guess that time periods of "45 minutes" were coming up! Oh my god!

Anyway, yeah... he swapped to one of my helmets in February or March, followed the proper protocols, and oh my gosh now, according to his comment, people are actually COMPLEMENTING HIS HAIR, and saying it looks better than it has in years or something. So, he's finally happy after a long time -a long time of previously poor protocols!

So, at some point there will be a great section that has three columns -positive testimonials, neutral testimonials, and negative testimonials. You'll be able to see them all together. Since we are troubleshooters, naturally we are going to really develop the negative testimonials side so we can get an accurate picture of what's going on. When you get that "accurate picture", though, be prepared to take on our viewpoints of some of these scenarios.

In conclusion...

Be vigilant, fellas. Don't forget the "cart before the horse" thing about all of this laser movement. We figured out what works, then built on that -and it works not only with real people, but also has the science behind it that says it should. Anyone that says differently is lying to you. I can prove that, I've done it before, and I'll do it again -permanently so people can't take advantage of a situation when a group of people that know a lot about this are occupied temporarily with something else!

Don't be so easily swayed. Don't fall for any of this. I know hair loss is tough, but I'm telling you... when you guys see what my hair looks like in a few weeks, you are going to be literally flipping out. ...And I'll show you EXACTLY how I did it, too. Hair transplant and two years with a laser helmet and *I* look like a rock star, and no... it's not just the hair transplant. You'll see!


So, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! Same crap, perhaps different sources, but the same old forums that are conducive to deception and mass hysteria! lol... Enjoy it while it lasts! Tick tock tick tock...

-John Christian (O.M.G.)
  • "When all else fails, lie about OverMachoGrande." -observations by Jdp710
Build the most effective laser device in the world at http://www.overmachogrande.com...

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Anxious1
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Anxious1 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:13 pm

just with the 20 - 25 minutes thing, i think ppl do that because 20 mins 3 times a week doesnt sound like a precise figure, even though i know its based on a formula for joules /cm^2.

so ppl think hey its its just 'around' 20 minutes, might as well bump it up to 25 minutes for that bit extra.

perhaps u should change it to 1200 seconds. lol

xyion1
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by xyion1 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:24 am

OMG,

You've done great things for the LLLT community, just wanted to say thanks!

I've been following your instructions for nearly 3 months now, and my hair looks good and I believe further loss has been slowed dramatically. Its been even better since I started using clay pre-treatment. Several new vellus hairs poking through. We'll see where they are in a few weeks, but for now things are looking up!

Thanks again, wish you all the best.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by wookin » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:20 am

Hey OMG,

As always you have come in and help keep things real for people. Its a sad shame that shills come in and not only sell their crap scams, but now refute the effectiveness of treatments they have never even tried. What a piss off. This is why the cure will be found by some honest folks from one of these sites.

p.s have you received my emails re:helmet parts?

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Lapwing » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:31 am

Great post OMG!

You have to be ever vigilant on these things unfortunately. Keep on telling it the way it is. Everything you just said is based on this best science info there is on lllt as far as I can tell.

It is amazing how some people who dismiss lasers also have no conception of the 30 month window. They don't even know how MPB progresses and the irreversible processes that occur on the scalp.

And to think you are spoon-feeding these people and they still can't get it...

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Dobika
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Dobika » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:12 am

Great post OMG! I built my helmet using unfocused lenses, the lense is still on but unfocused. I'm one of the ones who was scared by the 20 minutes is too much thing.
Do you think 20 minutes is too much with my set up? Thanks

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Saber28 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

I'm still looking for a topical for laser theory OMG. What do you recommend?

nidhogge
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Treatment Regimen: - Laser Helmet 3x a week, 20 minutes per session
- Magnesium Oil applied to scalp in the shower and massaged in well, left on for duration of shower
- HGF (Hair Growth Factors) custom formulation from Caregen once or twice a day
- A&G Complex (2 vials left)
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- ImmortalHair.org regimen coupled with 112Degrees.com's product for hormonal balance

Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by nidhogge » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:43 am

According to Dr. Maricle, LLLT used in conjunction with a topical should enhance the effectiveness due to opening up the pores and increased circulation along with more excited mitochondrial activity.

20 minutes is fine--this is %&$! that's being propagated by the Regrowth.com goon squad because they are jealous of what OMG has done for the community. If you want to reduce your time, do 15 minutes for 5 or 6 months and see how things go. LLLT's results are slow and steady, don't expect an overnight head of Kurt Russell hair! :)

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Joanne » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:07 am

Not to take the Anniversary thread too far off topic, but here's a post by Dr Maricle from the Regrowth thread: "Ask Chuck Maricle PhD your quesions (sic)" last July. This particular post was in response to Lakers' question about lasering with a wet scalp vs a dry scalp :

Two thoughts I have heard.
1) A wet scalp causes the light to be focused better and therefore provide a greater intensity on the treatment spot.
2) Or, a wet scalp just makes the lasers dirty and does little more than cause some of the laser energy to be reflected away from the target.

If the "stuff" that is on the scalp is something that can be activated / enhanced by the laser light (as taught by McDaniel in his various patents see the following http://jordanhealthclinic.com/photofaci ... icles.html ) then there is a reason for the scalp to be "wet" since it is a combination therapy.

Most professional clinics keep the clean and dry scalp mode of operation more I suspect to keep the lasers clean.

Look for hair products that can be light activated. Might be a good combination.



Unfortunately, he didn't come back and post very much after that, and we never got clarification about any specific hair products could be "light activated". I'm not familiar with any products that are marketing themselves that way ... although I don't want to give Steve at Scalpure any ideas :lol:

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Joanne » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:22 am

In that same thread, Dr Maricle posted another response ... this one to my question if very fair-skinned people might be risking bioinhibition since he'd posted earlier in the thread that LLLT penetrates more deeply in very light skin.

Since this question about treatment time is on quite a few threads here at the moment, thought some of you might want to hear the answer straight from the doctor's mouth. I thought it was a little ambiguous, but here it is:

For non-responders, the normal protocol was to up the treatment from 20 to 30 (or sometimes 40) minutes which equates to somewhere between 6 and 8 joules of energy at the surface. I had not thought about the saturation point in this way but it does seem to make logical sense at first glance. The poster child for this technology has always been the white male, dark hair since they show the best cosmetic results. What I know from experience is that women and hispanic men respond better (quicker) than the white male. The female issue is obvious, no DHT issues but for the men there is the absorbtion versus "bio" point question. Most clinics go for the brute force method, i.e. increase treatment time and frequency for the non-responder but there may be a better answer.

"...but there may be a better answer".

I'd love to know his thoughts now, after he's had a few months to ponder the question.

Something else to consider about his answer .... most clinics use the 2X/week protocol. So maybe it's ok to increase time a little if you're only lasering twice a week... In other words, is it the treatment time or is it the frequency? Personally, I think frequency might be more of a problem than treatment time. JMHO. :-k

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hapyman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:35 am

Joanne wrote: Something else to consider about his answer .... most clinics use the 2X/week protocol. So maybe it's ok to increase time a little if you're only lasering twice a week... In other words, is it the treatment time or is it the frequency? Personally, I think frequency might be more of a problem than treatment time. JMHO. :-k
There is a study that JDP references all the time that shows that more frequent treatments stimulate a better response. It is actually a function of both treatment time and frequency since when doing LLLT on consecutive days the stimulation is cumulative but not in an exact ratio.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hairisgood » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:45 am

Yeah, so is 10 minutes 6 days in a row and 1 day off better than 20, 3 times a week? Is anyone doing this? Have you tried this OMG? Also I have a question about magnesium. I have magnesium orotate that is taken as a supplement. Can I crush this up and use it as a topical the same way people are using magnesium chloride?

Thanks

Hairisgood

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by N0rwgnKid » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:47 am

OMG I remember in a thread we talked about frequency and treatment times, and you mentioned you were thinking about trying maybe 1mw diodes and treating for like an hour or more.. have you done any more thinking to this ? What about you others, anyone had these thoughts ? Not long ago I spoke to my professor about this, using less mw diodes but giving the same amount of joules in the treatment of tendinopathy injuries, but over a longer period of time. He confirmed there where studies showing this giving greater results. Maybe this can be related to our interests.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Joanne » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:29 am

hapyman wrote:
Joanne wrote: Something else to consider about his answer .... most clinics use the 2X/week protocol. So maybe it's ok to increase time a little if you're only lasering twice a week... In other words, is it the treatment time or is it the frequency? Personally, I think frequency might be more of a problem than treatment time. JMHO. :-k
There is a study that JDP references all the time that shows that more frequent treatments stimulate a better response. It is actually a function of both treatment time and frequency since when doing LLLT on consecutive days the stimulation is cumulative but not in an exact ratio.
Hmm, I guess I missed that one. My thinking is that if we're trying to duplicate the results we see in a lot of the laser clinic B&A's, maybe we should duplicate the protocol.

I've had some success with LLLT, but nothing like the Sunetics or Gaunitz pics (and LLLT is supposedly quicker/more effective on women). So my strategy going forward is to try to replicate what the clinics are doing and see if anything changes. The first step will be going from 3X/week to 2X/week--still keeping the treatment time at 20 min. I'll give it a couple of months and see what happens.

Also going to start lasering with a dry scalp. I called a few clinics and they said their clients just come in, sit down for 20-30 minutes (2X/week) and leave. No one's washing their hair or lasering wet (at the places I spoke to). And these clients are showing dramatic results around 6 months. Gaunitz does something with a olive oil/lemon juice massage, but I've never read any specifics, so no way to replicate that.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by buddyebsen » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:33 pm

Joanne,

I agree that to try to do the same as the clinics may be a good idea. I've noticed that the clinics' lasers are further from the scalp; more than 2cm (which is less than an inch, 1 inch = 2.54 cm). I am inclined to increase the distance a bit.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hapyman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:48 pm

You guys don't realize is that all of this has been thought of before... not trying to be rude :D

The clinics do their protocols for a reason. There lasers are focused and further away and sometimes rotate allowing for longer exposure times. Ours are diffuse and much closer. There is no sense in trying to mimic their protocols unless your device is designed exactly the same way.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Joanne » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:17 pm

You have a point Hapyman ... but I'm just trying to mimic their results, and so far I haven't. Granted the clinics' lasers are focused and rotating (and in some cases pulsing) lasers, but they're the same lasers I'm using. I can't focus or modulate my device, but I can try their protocol and see if it changes things up a bit. It seems like it's worth a try.

LLLT has been a positive experience for me in general, but 10 months into it, I thought I'd be further along.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by buddyebsen » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:00 pm

.
Last edited by buddyebsen on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by buddyebsen » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:06 pm

hapyman wrote:You guys don't realize is that all of this has been thought of before... not trying to be rude :D

The clinics do their protocols for a reason. There lasers are focused and further away and sometimes rotate allowing for longer exposure times. Ours are diffuse and much closer. There is no sense in trying to mimic their protocols unless your device is designed exactly the same way.


Actually, the Sunetics Clinical Unit has diffused diodes. http://www.sunetics.com/comparelasers_safety.aspx

With them, Dr, Maracle still recommends using them at a greater distance from the scalp (1.5 inches or 3.8 cm).

Not sure about other clinics.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by NeverQuit » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:38 pm

OMG,
So now that your back, can you also touch on the "September Sunburn" scare that has come up recently.

I'm currently at the 6 month mark. At the 4 month mark on - when I touch my head lightly it feels like a very mild sunburn. I ONLY feel it when I touch the area being treated and it's pretty constant, not just after LLLT. To clarify; this isn't an inner soreness, but a skin type of soreness.

My question is - Have you ever had this feeling? Any thoughts on what causes it? Would you consider it good or bad? Would you continue 20x3's?

(I realize I've had some shedding issues, so other things may have to be looked at - but would like your view on this "generally speaking")

Thanks, NQ

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by 1..... » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:55 pm

get out of here

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Lapwing » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:24 pm

Joanne,

Pics can only be trusted so much. The clinics are going to show only the best responders. Those type of results may be attainable by the average responder. Don't be too disappointed yet. I am nearing the 18 month mark and I am still getting improvement.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Anxious1 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:36 am

something else regarding clinics, and why they seem to get better results:

clinics are much more picky and choosy about who they accept, and they tell people to far gone that it will not do much for them. by only encouraging certain people to use lasers, namely people at early stages of mpb, they increase the probablity of getting good results, and increase the success rate. gauntz in particular has said something to this effect in tv interviews.

whereas when we treat ourselves with DIY helmets, hand helds and combs, anyone will try it, hoping it will work, no matter wat level of mpb there is, so this results in a lower success rate.

cancer clinics and drug trials use this same idea to increase their success rates, by only allowing the patients who they feel , have the best chance at success to participate.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Anxious1 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:39 am

obviously no claser clinic is going to turn down someone with alot of money, no matter how bald they r, but surely the good companies would tell them how likely success will be, and either encourage them, or discourage them. some people have too much money, and will get the treatments just because they can.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Joanne » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:57 am

Lapwing wrote:Joanne,

Pics can only be trusted so much. The clinics are going to show only the best responders. Those type of results may be attainable by the average responder. Don't be too disappointed yet. I am nearing the 18 month mark and I am still getting improvement.
Thanks for the encouragement Lapwing.

I wouldn't really say I'm disappointed. The lasers have definitely helped. But I did go through 2 major sheds--as in 300-400 hairs/day. The first one was in Jan/Feb and the second one in July/August. With shoulder-length hair, the volume hit is very noticeable. But I don't plan on dropping LLLT at all. Just going to mix up the routine a little and see if it has any effect.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:24 pm

Hey, Joanne!

I just made a post about "Synchronized Shedding", and that sounds exactly like that. Here it is here: http://www.hairlossfight.com/forums/vie ... 543#p11388 The good news is that those get better and better as time goes on because your hair sheds get more randomized again over time vs. all at once.

Frankly... as hard to believe as it is, that means that it's WORKING really well. More of your hair is switching from telogen back to anagen -which means it has to shed. Once again, lol... if this was a board that talked about propecia all the damn time, you would have had 16 people and the forum owner coming on and telling you that was normal, it's a sign that it's working, and it's fantastic that you are a good responder.

But with lasers... I guess it's only up to a handful of us to reiterate that -and yes, we've been absentee lately so that helped the drama shedders of September 2009 change the tone of the entire board about LLLT. Oh, and a laser brush salesman jumping in to nod his head and say "Oh yeah, well these helmets are too strong -never mind my laser clinic hoods are twice as strong- and the problem is clearly the bristles [which no one has complained about causing irritation EVER with the Messiah's that I've ever seen or heard about]". So, there you go.... LASER CONFUSION at it's finest!

Now, why we have to shed first before we get good results is clearly a sign that God hates us, but I digress...

I see some other questions and I'll be back online tomorrow. If I post too much, the people who's emails I haven't responded to or who are tapping their fingers waiting for helmets get angry! I've got to get back to work!

-O.M.G.

PS... isn't the board so much better already now that the negative posters are a bit castrated? Man, I'm telling you... you would have thought it was the apocalypse by the emails I was getting.
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hapyman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:31 pm

Joanne wrote:You have a point Hapyman ... but I'm just trying to mimic their results, and so far I haven't. Granted the clinics' lasers are focused and rotating (and in some cases pulsing) lasers, but they're the same lasers I'm using. I can't focus or modulate my device, but I can try their protocol and see if it changes things up a bit. It seems like it's worth a try.

LLLT has been a positive experience for me in general, but 10 months into it, I thought I'd be further along.
I feel you. 10 months is when I started seeing more results. Still would always love more but that is the nature of the beast. Hang in there, hopefully there is much more in store for you after the 12 month mark.

Hey OMG, any word or update on the chip you were getting designed for pulsing?

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Lakers » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:42 pm

It's no surprise that people are concerned with shedding OMG. Shedding is never fun especially when you're not expecting it... since there wasn't a consensus on shedding while using LLLT I can see why users are concerned.

There are so many variables when it comes to LLLT and next to zero studies (MPB) so figuring this out as we go along looks like the only option. I just hope the hair I've lost in 6 months since starting LLLT will come back.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hermann » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:19 pm

Is the community over the EMU oil application before LLLT treatment?
I did not here from this for a long time ...

TO OMG,
what about the whole body or face LLLT device?
If your fiancee uses LLLT ..., does she have any results? Which?

Thanks!
Last edited by hermann on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by hermann » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:23 pm

hapyman wrote:
Joanne wrote: Something else to consider about his answer .... most clinics use the 2X/week protocol. So maybe it's ok to increase time a little if you're only lasering twice a week... In other words, is it the treatment time or is it the frequency? Personally, I think frequency might be more of a problem than treatment time. JMHO. :-k
There is a study that JDP references all the time that shows that more frequent treatments stimulate a better response. It is actually a function of both treatment time and frequency since when doing LLLT on consecutive days the stimulation is cumulative but not in an exact ratio.

Hapyman,

can you please send me the link? Thanks!

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:51 am

Lakers...

Let me be really clear here. It's not a simple issue of people concerned about shedding... it's that two or so main offenders have attempted to hijack the discussion and perception of LLLT with this, made repeated posts full of offensive language against us, question the results of others, and paint an extremely deceptive picture of LLLT.

THAT IS A PROBLEM. Whenever ANYONE for ANY REASON does that, that's bad news.

Due to the nature of the posts themselves -the hostility, transparancy, etc., and not the issue of shedding itself- I most certainly am going to question their motives. Thank god I'm not alone. I think most people have seen it enough this time around with the crazies that they realize I'm not just talking out of my ass.
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Jacob » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:04 am

Ah..some of us do not believe a shed is necessary or necessarily a good thing. I am not saying LLLT causes sheds..or doesn't. Those posters obviously were trying to scare ppl so that their hair probably WOULD fall out though :-s

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:32 am

:
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Jacob » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:27 am

Oh yeah..I think I'll take 'em by the spoonful :D

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:32 am

c
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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by Jacob » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:39 am

Nid already started it..in the most expensive topical thread.

You can buy kefir in the grocery store. It just needs refrigeration. Although I did see some soap and I think shampoo out there..claiming to contain kefir.

But if it should actually happen to work so well.... :-s .....how are you going to know which bacteria it is..there are so many yogurts etc out there with various strains...

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Re: Happy Anniversary!

Post by OverMachoGrande » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:39 pm

xxx
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