HEALTHCARE UK AND US AND NO MONEY

doke · Post by **doke** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:03 am

Hi guys an off topic subject as have seen news that in usa you have heard a lot of lies about our nhs,it is nothing to do with russia or communism,it is like you have now exceipt that you pay through your taxes and everyone gets healthcare no matter how rich or poor you are,my family have all been treated by the nhs and it is first class, if you have an accident it does not matter whether you have money or not.
There is still private healthcare in the uk but most people like to back the service,private healthcare is a con as it is there to make a profit,so the nhs is a service where the money all goes to that service and not shareholders.
I forone could not understand the us people getting so worked up about this as they will still be able to pay into a private company if they want like we can if you can afford it,so do not panic. :-"

Joanne · Post by **Joanne** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:53 pm

People are getting so worked up because the "shills" in the HMO insurance industry are trying to scare the hell out of people, because...THEY have the most $$$ to lose if the government provides an alternative for people who can't afford their insane premiums.

And you're right. If people are happy with the health insurance they have ... or want to buy from a private company, that's their right and that won't change.

But for people like me--self employed with a pre-existing condition...hypothyroidism/PCOS--I have NO choice but to pay $500/month for private health insurance, with a $2000 deductible. And every medical bill I submit gets denied. So that means ... it doesn't even go towards my deductible and I pay the full medical bill in cash, in the doctor's office before I leave. Oh, and by the way...no prescription coverage (or dental or eyes).

Basically, if I get cancer or run over by a bus, SUPPOSEDLY at some point my bills MIGHT be covered.

The #1 reason for personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills.

The private insurance companies are making billions of dollars. They are the middle man, taking their hefty cut every time you need to see a doctor. If you make a claim, they consider you a "loss".

My endocrinologist has TWO full-time employees just to deal with the insurance paperwork. Think that's not included in the price of my $300 office visit?

The US system is completely broken. Thanks for sharing a first hand experience with a national health care option.

The whole issue boils down to the fact that the private health insurance companies do not want to give up the ridiculous profits they're making. There are millions of Americans on Medicare (a "socialist" government health care option) who are very happy with the system. It works and it works efficiently. And the HMOs know if they end up having to compete with the US gov't on price, they might only make $5 billion dollars instead of $15 billion dollars. Shills and scare tactics.

And one more thing...I'd like to see all these Congress men and women who are screaming that the government can't handle health care VOLUNTARILY SURRENDER their US-taxpayer funded health insurance as a matter of principle. Let them put their money where their mouths are. If they think that the private sector can do a better job of providing health care, then let them buy their own private policies and refund the difference back to the taxpayers. They have the Cadillac of health care. They don't seem to be complaining. Even Senator Grassley said, "If you want good health insurance ... work for the government".

Sick, sick, sick. :-&

doke · Post by **doke** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:39 am

hi jo you are right i do not think any company should be able to profit from the sick,not in the year 09 as you may have seen on tv professor Steven Hawkin said he is alive due to the uk nhs, some people that have had problems with private hospitals they have had to be sent to a nhs hospital which have specialist equipment.As the us is so big a country it may be difficult to have a uk style system but i thought some of you may have a false outlook of our healthcare.
If there is the will to go down the nhs route then it could happen but there is too much scaremongering going on.
One thing a american guy said that is living in london in the us you get scared of getting ill but in uk you do not?

doke · Post by **doke** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:23 am

Is it not funny that some of the most wealthy countries in the world cannot offer free healthcare yet can go to war at the drop of a hat and have poor people that have to have soup kitchens to be fed and yet can afford to spend billions on a space programe hahahaha this is the same as uk because although the gov says it is short of money we still find money for wars?

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:12 pm

Anyone supporting this legislative disaster known as the "health care bill." Let me ask you. Where does it say the government has authority to provide for health care?

Also Joanne if you have removed government from health care insurance companies would collapse, because prices would go back down to where the market would allow.

The solution to government involvement isn't more government involvement. Anyone telling you otherwise is either a liar, or have their own selfish motivations in doing so.

This country is BROKE, personal income tax is down 22% corporate income tax is down 57% since last year. Do ANY OF YOU honestly believe we can afford this? There's even evidence of the Federal Reserve buying up to half of the treasuries sold last week. WE ARE INSOLVENT this cannot be funded.

The status quo is unworkable, and I fully support government going back to it's Constitutional limits and not meddling in our personal lives. Until "we the people" meaning me and you demand that the government back off they won't. They will shove this legislation down our throat and then when this system fails you won't blame yourselves or the government. The moronic sheep will demand the government fix their own problem. Completely idiotic and stupid. I'll leave you with this quote from George Washington who told us to be wary of government and not welcome it into our lives with open arms.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Avery · Post by **Avery** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:35 pm

Where does it say the government has authority to provide for health care?

General welfare clause.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:22 pm

General welfare clause.

Nice try, that is not what the "general welfare" clause was meant to do. Thomas Jefferson even stated as such:

"To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, "to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union." --Thomas Jefferson

"They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please... Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straitly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect." --Thomas Jefferson

So I ask you again. Where does the government get the authority to provide health care? It is NOT an enumerated power.

Even if you wanted to try and twist it to whatever YOU wanted, the federal government cannot provide anything to the people as the federal government is beholden to the STATES. The powers enumerated to the federal government was to provide protection and general welfare to the STATES. Not the PEOPLE. Read the federalist papers. That way you get a better understanding of how this system of government is SUPPOSED to work, not this convoluted repulsive mob ruled "democracy" we have now. This is a god damn constitutional republic and anyone supporting this has NO RIGHT to MINE or ANYONE ELSE'S LABOR.. You want it you fund it, leave me out of it.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:39 pm

I just want to be able to buy my insurance from a company in Alaska.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:46 pm

Jacob wrote:I just want to be able to buy my insurance from a company in Alaska.

If the government removed itself from Health Care you wouldn't even need insurance Jacob. Did people need insurance in the 30's and 40's? Nope.. Why is it that after FDR's "Raw Deal" did health care start to increase in price? Why is the AMA decreasing the amount of doctors it certifies? Hmm all very good questions for those of you who will look past the %&$! put on display by the government and start asking questions. Quit being spoon fed the %&$! talking points from the bobble heads on T.V. and actually pick up that piece of %&$! bill and READ IT.

You'll do more than your CONgress critter ever will even if you read just the first 100 pages. Most of these "elected" idiots haven't even read it. Yet you're wanting it passed because of what Barry Soetoro is telling you? Good grief I can't stand the dumbed down sheeple mentality of this nation. Don't even ask questions just gimme gimme gimme.

This isn't directed at you Jacob or anyone in particular I'm just tired of funding failed programs. If anyone of you supporting this can give me just 1 example of a government project or program that runs as smoothly and efficiently as it was described I'm all ears. Because in my years on earth so far and living within this nation I haven't found it, and believe me I've looked. There isn't a SINGLE government program/project that runs smoothly, efficiently or even cost effectively. Yet some of you are willing to put that kind of ineptitude in charge of your health care???

Good luck with that.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:17 pm

Trust me..I'm not in favor of Obamacare..or anything remotely like it.

But my sarcastic post about being able to buy a plan from another state is another example of why things are so screwed up. I'm all for insurance...but I want it as cheap as possible for the best coverage..and the gov't should get the

out of the way.

The latest on Canadian care: http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Gu_Z3KXoQw

doke · Post by **doke** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:55 am

guys healthcare as in uk situation is that private insurance companies are not keen on people when they get a series illness stands to reason because it may become long term,also premiums are likely to rise.
So in uk the nhs run by gov is cheaper than insurance and will save your life when you need it,there was a lot of scare tactives in uk after the war when nhs was set up,and know it is the envy of the would with first class healthcare.
If you are saying that taxes will rise does not make sence because you are paying for it know through private profit making companies that do not care a %&$! about you or your family only about profit, the nhs is a service that will take care of you and your family cradel to grave.
I myself would not trust insurance to take care of my family as have had problems in the past with these con merchants they will try and wriggle out of something if they can?
We have had private medical insurance companies in uk that have refused to pay out for series health life threatening illness.

0416Dr · Post by **0416Dr** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:09 am

private insurances and private health care systems DO NOT WORK, they suck!!!

I live in the Netherlands and for a long time we were unknown to private insurances and healthcare systems. But some years ago the government decided to make it all private so it would be even cheaper for us.....NOOOOOOOOT, I remember I was paying like +- 20 dollars (even less) each month. This was for our national health care system. All doctor visits and medicines were free etc.

Nowadays, all is different. Now that all is private and commercial we have to pay around +- 170 dollars each month, with a MANDATORY "own risk" of +- 220 dollars. So it is getting more expensive...I mean much much much much more. Esspecially for ppl who are not using this. Also on medicines, we MUST pay the cheapest otherwise you cannot declare the money (actually you cant if you didnt pass the own risk of 220 dollars for its year).

All is just based on money/profit, instead of saving lives. We just got the message that there will be a raise and we have to pay almost 200 dollars, the raise is based on the mexican flu thing which imo is crap....woowww very cheap, thanks government, all the money is now dissapearing to CEO's and CFO's etc who can filled up they pockets with (AT LEAST) a salary of half million dollars in a year. The funny thing is that you MUST be insured, otherwise you are liable to penalty...

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:22 am

doke wrote:guys healthcare as in uk situation is that private insurance companies are not keen on people when they get a series illness stands to reason because it may become long term,also premiums are likely to rise.
So in uk the nhs run by gov is cheaper than insurance and will save your life when you need it,there was a lot of scare tactives in uk after the war when nhs was set up,and know it is the envy of the would with first class healthcare.
If you are saying that taxes will rise does not make sence because you are paying for it know through private profit making companies that do not care a %&$! about you or your family only about profit, the nhs is a service that will take care of you and your family cradel to grave.
I myself would not trust insurance to take care of my family as have had problems in the past with these con merchants they will try and wriggle out of something if they can?
We have had private medical insurance companies in uk that have refused to pay out for series health life threatening illness.

Doke it won't make any difference if Obamacare gets passed. I always listen to people piss and moan about "corporate profits" on and on they drone about it like it's the greatest of all evils. If that is the case they wouldn't have ANY input in this health care bill when in reality they helped write it.

Sorry doke your argument doesn't hold any water. What we have here is a fascist bill if you don't believe me please by all means take the time to actually READ IT. And quit spouting off the talking points. Did you know that in treating an illness life threatening or not the government mandates that you only get 4 attempts. So if you have cancer and it keeps coming back you're going to get cut off from funding. Read above from George Washington about the role government.

I would love to see insurance companies completely COLLAPSE but ONLY if the government steps out and let's health institutions compete with one another. Fascism does not work and only benefits the corporations that have cozied up next to government. Which is EXACTLY what we have here in the U.S. Insurance and Big Pharma bought and paid for politicians do you honestly think the government is going to mandate something that is going to harm their biggest donors? I don't think so.

doke · Post by **doke** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:00 am

hi sabar it does not sound like the uk model then as i do not live in us we in uk do not understand only that our system is very good.
Why does obama not go down the uk route? is it down to cost?

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:20 am

doke wrote:hi sabar it does not sound like the uk model then as i do not live in us we in uk do not understand only that our system is very good.
Why does obama not go down the uk route? is it down to cost?

Obama can't go down that route because of the entrenched corporate interest. Also you guys own your central bank (bank of England has been nationalized, as our Federal Reserve System is PRIVATE) and have some semblance of control over your monetary policy. We in the U.S. do not. But either way we both are at the mercy of international bankers and credit nations so we really aren't in control of any policy in either nation. As Napoleon said "The hand that gives is above the hand that receives."

Health care is not a right, it is a service and you are expected to pay for the service. Not the government. Government has no duty, obligation or even enumerated power to meddle in such a private matter as health care. The U.S.'s health care worked fine without government involvement, and it most certainly would work much better if government got out of the way. What most people don't understand is that health care prices are determined by government price models, and the AMA (American Medical Association) not licensing as many doctors in years past thereby creating an artificial shortage.

Big Pharma, Insurance, and Government can all go collapse for all I care. Neither one provide a valuable service or function in society other than to bread the sheep and feed them garbage.

glaxom · Post by **glaxom** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 am

Plenty of problems with gov't run health care..................

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... ml#britain

doke · Post by **doke** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:36 am

i have had a look and it looks like the nhs is bad,what the main trouble is that the cost of private drug companies cost of new life giving drugs which were not like that when nhs was started in 1948,it is also that a life saving drug for say cancer could prolong someones life for say another few years but the cost of the drug to the health service is £30,000 a year that is where the money goes,and know they can replace your heart on nhs that op costs thousends,but this is not a fault of the nhs its private companies making profit on the sick.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:21 am

doke wrote:i have had a look and it looks like the nhs is bad,what the main trouble is that the cost of private drug companies cost of new life giving drugs which were not like that when nhs was started in 1948,it is also that a life saving drug for say cancer could prolong someones life for say another few years but the cost of the drug to the health service is £30,000 a year that is where the money goes,and know they can replace your heart on nhs that op costs thousends,but this is not a fault of the nhs its private companies making profit on the sick.

So you're saying drug companies shouldn't be compensated for their effort in developing said life saving drug? The cost to develop and manufacture drugs can run in the billions. They have to have an ROI (Return on Investment) or they go under. Most profits go to share holders and to the patent holder as royalty rights. But the patent at least in the U.S. is only good for 17 years (It may be shorter or longer, I'm not exactly sure on the number of years a drug patent is good for.). After that another manufacture can make the same drug as a "generic" and cost significantly less. Reason being they didn't have to upfront the initial investment to develop and manufacture it.

The same argument holds true Doke, Health care is NOT a right. You have no right to my labor to pay for your health care. Even your former prime minister Margret Thatcher even said as much. "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

I'm more of a herbalist/naturalist and look for nature to provide a treatment first as most drugs that are developed anymore can make you just as sick with the side effects if not worse than the original ailment it was originally developed to treat in the first place.

Even IF this disaster gets passed in the U.S. it won't be around long as we are bankrupt as a nation. This nation will fall, you can't ignore the math leading up to our economic collapse. The only question is will it fail by deflation or hyperinflation? The UK faces the same problem. You guys are just as broke as we are. So enjoy that health care now as in 3-5 years I predict it won't be there before your country goes tits up.

doke · Post by **doke** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:39 am

saber mrs thatcher partly privatised the nhs with her free market nonsense so when new labour came to power the nhs was very run down and staved of money,our money that we paid in national insurance? what did she do with our money?
so new labour has put extra funding into the service, do not belive that we cannot pay for good healthcare as our gov has put millions into uk banks and still has enough to send overseas to corrupt goverments and billions a day on wars, me thinks that the govs are trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
Anyway saber whichever way we go we pay for our health care it is really not free in uk as i said we pay a direct na insurence that we have to pay,the only thing that is good is ongoing healthcare if you get a major illness you do not ever pay more.
As to a right to healthcare that is what people in uk have come to expect and really if we want to go back to the days when if you were poor you died and the rich lived it would be a charles dickins era that i hope we never see again?

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:07 am

doke wrote:saber mrs thatcher partly privatised the nhs with her free market nonsense so when new labour came to power the nhs was very run down and staved of money,our money that we paid in national insurance? what did she do with our money?
so new labour has put extra funding into the service, do not belive that we cannot pay for good healthcare as our gov has put millions into uk banks and still has enough to send overseas to corrupt goverments and billions a day on wars, me thinks that the govs are trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
Anyway saber whichever way we go we pay for our health care it is really not free in uk as i said we pay a direct na insurence that we have to pay,the only thing that is good is ongoing healthcare if you get a major illness you do not ever pay more.
As to a right to healthcare that is what people in uk have come to expect and really if we want to go back to the days when if you were poor you died and the rich lived it would be a charles dickins era that i hope we never see again?

Spoken like someone who has no understanding of economics/Fiat money/Fractional Reserve Banking at all. Typical entitlement mentality. It's not your fault you were born and raised that way. It takes an awakening to see the system for what it is. No government is pulling wool over my eyes, if anything the wool is surely over your eyes if you think your system is sustainable. It is not.

No the UK does not have money sitting in accounts. You print it up out of thin air just like the US does. What happened back in March when the UK couldn't find enough buyers for the pound? Gee do you think that the UK government cut spending to make make up the difference? NOPE they monetized the debt just like the U.S. is doing. How does the UK fund it's operations including health care with tax receipts down along with joblessness going up, and unable to sell off it's debt (i.e. borrow money from creditor nations.) They print it up. Only slower than the dollar and Euro. Watch the forex if you don't believe me. Fiat currencies only have a life span of about 2 generations. The dollar has been a complete fiat currency when Nixon severed the gold standard August 15th 1971, which gave birth to the "petrol dollar" In exchange for OPEC only selling their oil in dollars they were offered protection from the strongest military in existence. But it only delays the inevitable because not a SINGLE fiat currency in the history of man kind has survived more than 2 generations before failure. The dollar is approaching it's death, and with it the global system goes, since it is based on fraud and deceit.

I'm telling you now doke, don't get used to government funded health care because in 3-5 years you will not have that option available anymore. Mathematics don't lie you're going to go back to the Charles Dickens era whether you want to or not. Mark my words save my post and get back with me in 3-5 years and tell me I'm wrong. I welcome it, I really hope I am. But I'm afraid that I am not.

Dex!!!! · Post by **Dex!!!!** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:55 pm

Why does anyone not from the US even care what goes on in the US as far as their health care is concerned.

I have seen the Canuckistani system used as a horror story example of what happens if health care is socialised. There was outrage here and a collective desire to set the record straight (hint: you are lied to constantly by Rush, Sean, Lou, Bill and the rest), but I say "who the f u c k cares what lies and propaganda are used to make huge profits for faceless corporation off of the misery of others". If it's the sheeple's will, then why fight it. No skin off my back.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:42 pm

Dex!!!! wrote:Why does anyone not from the US even care what goes on in the US as far as their health care is concerned.

I have seen the Canuckistani system used as a horror story example of what happens if health care is socialised. There was outrage here and a collective desire to set the record straight (hint: you are lied to constantly by Rush, Sean, Lou, Bill and the rest), but I say "who the f u c k cares what lies and propaganda are used to make huge profits for faceless corporation off of the misery of others". If it's the sheeple's will, then why fight it. No skin off my back.

Socialized health care in action.

VANCOUVER — Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures can expect to wait longer for care, NDP health critic Adrian Dix said Monday.

Dix said a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority document shows it is considering chopping more than 6,000 surgeries in an effort to make up for a dramatic budgetary shortfall that could reach $200 million.

“This hasn’t been announced by the health authority … but these cuts are coming,” Dix said, citing figures gleaned from a leaked executive summary of “proposed VCH surgical reductions.”

The health authority confirmed the document is genuine, but said it represents ideas only.

“It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented,” said spokeswoman Anna Marie D’Angelo.

Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts “a nightmare.”

“Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery? I just can’t think of a worse place,” Brodie said.

According to the leaked document, Vancouver Coastal — which oversees the budget for Vancouver General and St. Paul’s hospitals, among other health-care facilities — is looking to close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms starting in September and to cut 6,250 surgeries, including 24 per cent of cases scheduled from September to March and 10 per cent of all medically necessary elective procedures this fiscal year.

The plan proposes cutbacks to neurosurgery, ophthalmology, vascular surgery, and 11 other specialized areas.

As many of 112 full-time jobs — including 13 anesthesiologist positions — would be affected by the reductions, the document says.

“Clearly this will impact the capacity of the health-care system to provide care, not just now but in the future,” Dix said.

Further reductions in surgeries are scheduled during the Olympics, when the health authority plans to close approximately a third of its operating rooms.

Two weeks ago, Dix released a Fraser Health Authority draft communications plan listing proposed clinical care cuts, including a 10-per-cent cut in elective surgeries and longer waits for MRI scans.

The move comes after the province acknowledged all health authorities together will be forced to cut staff, limit some services and increase fees to find $360 million in savings during the current fiscal year.

In all, Fraser Health is looking at a $160-million funding shortfall.

D’Angelo said Vancouver Coastal’s deficit is closer to $90 million — almost a third of which ($23 million) has already been absorbed through reductions in non-clinical administration efficiencies.

Vancouver Coastal performed 67,000 surgeries last year, an increase of 6,500 surgeries over 2007.

“What has now happened is that now our wait times are about 25 per cent lower than the provincial average,” D’Angelo said. “We have put a dent in that wait list.”

Brodie acknowledged surgical waiting times have dropped significantly in recent years, particularly for patients needing hip and joint replacements.

He said the proposed cuts threaten those advancements.

“It sounds like we are going backwards here,” he said.

Total health spending in British Columbia was $15.7 billion this year, up about four per cent over last year’s total of 15.1 billion, according to figures provided by the ministry of health.

Health Minister Kevin Falcon was unavailable for comment Monday on the proposed health-care cuts. A ministry spokesman said Falcon is away on his honeymoon until the end of August.

Elsewhere in British Columbia, the province will look to replace the head of the Interior Health Authority, Murray Ramsden, after he announced he will step down at the end of the year.

Ramsden has said his decision to retire is not related to financial problems faced by the authority.

As the story goes, you really do start to run out of other peoples money.

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:46 am

saber since 1997 our waiting list for ops has gone down for cancer you can be seen straight away and if series the op will take place urgently,what a load of rubbish we will not go back to dickins days in healthcare the nhs is hear to stay and get even better than it is know save this for 3 years,i notice you did not care to answer if a war comes up which costs more than healthcare,and as to the drug companies they do spend millions on new drugs which is a good thing but even our gov has said that they are overpriced and know buy a lot more from india where cheaper.
As to our nhs we do not have shareholders the money we spend goes straight into the hs as insurance companies are a con and only see a profit not a person and as we have seen in uk at times totally heartless?

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:55 am

note my mother who was 67 got an illness called guillain-barre' sydrome she was taken straight into our local nhs hospital the QE11 had lots of tests to find out what was wrong then transferred to a london nhs hospital the royal free and was in there for over 3 weeks then transferred back to our local hospital,and because we paid when working a national none profit insurance had to pay nothing,now my mum would have died without the nhs ?

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:06 am

doke wrote:saber since 1997 our waiting list for ops has gone down for cancer you can be seen straight away and if series the op will take place urgently,what a load of rubbish we will not go back to dickins days in healthcare the nhs is hear to stay and get even better than it is know save this for 3 years,i notice you did not care to answer if a war comes up which costs more than healthcare,and as to the drug companies they do spend millions on new drugs which is a good thing but even our gov has said that they are overpriced and know buy a lot more from india where cheaper.
As to our nhs we do not have shareholders the money we spend goes straight into the hs as insurance companies are a con and only see a profit not a person and as we have seen in uk at times totally heartless?

Load of rubbish Doke? Really? Do you honestly think your system of health care is sustainable while your tax base shrinks? Get a grip on reality for a minute. How can you say with such confidence that a system will stay in place and "get better" when you have no understanding of the financing behind it? You will go back to an era of government not providing for the citizens. Reason being is because the tax base is shrinking. If you think this is an ordinary "recession" please by all means continue to live in your little fantasy world, and be extremely disappointed when it doesn't happen.

You didn't ask a question about the wars, you made a statement. Had I known it was a question I would of answered it. I fully support America pulling back it's armed forces and closing down our global empire and let the nations of the world police themselves. We do not have the money, the power or the moral fortitude to police a world who's views and ideology are different than our own. We will reach 12.1 Trillion dollars in national debt by October. Brining in some idiotic health care legislation will make it that much worse. As it stands now with just that debt it cannot be paid back. Not counting the unfunded liabilities (Social Slavery (I call it what it is, if you don't believe me, try to opt out of it see how far you get.) Medicaid, and Medicare. The total for unfunded liabilities is 99 TRILLION dollars. This statistic is coming from a Dallas Federal Reserve Board Member. We as a nation are BROKE. There is no way to fund it. The same goes for your country Doke. You're just as broke as we are. Yet have the ignorant audacity to say that your system is going to stay? HA HA HA Yeah sure thing. Let me know how that works out for you.

Dex!!!! · Post by **Dex!!!!** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:31 am

Like I said "no skin off my back".

"can expect to wait longer for care"

Wow that's showing us. Still better than NO CARE for 47 million of you.

If you take all the money you GIVE to the insurance companies + all the deductibles you need to pay before you get treatment and used this money to pay your taxes and have a non-profit organisation (the government, the people's representatives that you have elected and should have your best interest in mind and not lobbysit's) do the administration is would still be cheaper and everyone would be covered.

The rich assholes in Canuckistan can still go to see private doctors if they want to pay for it, but they still have to pay their taxes. This is far more sustainable for EVERYONE than profit based health care, which most normal people see as simple sick and twisted.

But have it your way.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:16 am

Dex!!!! wrote:Like I said "no skin off my back".

"can expect to wait longer for care"

Wow that's showing us. Still better than NO CARE for 47 million of you.

If you take all the money you GIVE to the insurance companies + all the deductibles you need to pay before you get treatment and used this money to pay your taxes and have a non-profit organisation (the government, the people's representatives that you have elected and should have your best interest in mind and not lobbysit's) do the administration is would still be cheaper and everyone would be covered.

The rich assholes in Canuckistan can still go to see private doctors if they want to pay for it, but they still have to pay their taxes. This is far more sustainable for EVERYONE than profit based health care, which most normal people see as simple sick and twisted.

But have it your way.

47 million huh? Would 20+ million of those be illegal aliens? Nah can't be. Gotta be 47 million red blooded Americans. :sarcasm:

I already told you people the solution to this mess is to get rid of government involvement in health care. IT IS NOT A RIGHT. You have no right to other peoples labor and other peoples money. What next you going to mandate automotive care? I mean hey you need a vehicle right? Or computer repair? You gotta be able to do your job if you own a home business. Right? Where does the legislative idiocy stop if you are mandating crap that the government has no enumerated powers for anyway? No thanks. I'll take a truly FREE market over government price controls any day. Let me ask you if you're in support of government price controls how come there are shortages in ANY country that tries it? I'll give you a hint, NO INCENTIVE. Whether you like it or not human beings prefer an incentive for doing something. You remove the incentive and there isn't going to be very many people who are going to want to do what they do anymore.

But as you said, have it your way let me know how long it last.

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:33 am

saber are you saying that your country if you live in us cannot afford healthcare yet can spend billions on a space program plus wars,you see our country has a queen and a lot of our hospitals were opened by the queen,so our country belives in caring for the sick otherwise we have got nowhere since the dark days,our people would not acceipt shutting the nhs down, you see our nhs is even different to french and german model,i think theres is even better than ours.
Idid here that even cuba has a great healthcare.
You cannot saber rattle here because you will not win as you say our nhs we are proud of and us has health care has a very bad press in uk. $\:D/$

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:35 am

Your private heathcare system run on profet of the sick is really evil,in this day and age we are entitled to the best care.What a load of garbage you talk saber you are entitled because you are paying insurance companiens more than two to three or more times for healthcare, that when you get to a certain age premiums go up in price, and what happens if you cannot afford the insurance? because we as a country are so proud to even say nhs because the costs stay the same and not for profit? please do not run our fantastic service down as it is always there when you need help,and anyone who comes to uk gets ill or has a accident you will be taken care of , it saves lives 24 hrs a day 52 weeks of the year. $\:D/$

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:46 am

As to free market profit over care it costs a great deal more,its already been worked out here that private free market insurance costs loads of doe more. :-"

doke · Post by **doke** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:49 am

Ride on dex you have the idea,that saber comes from another planet its called planet no care only profit matters hahaha

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:54 am

doke wrote:Your private heathcare system run on profet of the sick is really evil,in this day and age we are entitled to the best care.What a load of garbage you talk saber you are entitled because you are paying insurance companiens more than two to three or more times for healthcare, that when you get to a certain age premiums go up in price, and what happens if you cannot afford the insurance? because we as a country are so proud to even say nhs because the costs stay the same and not for profit? please do not run our fantastic service down as it is always there when you need help,and anyone who comes to uk gets ill or has a accident you will be taken care of , it saves lives 24 hrs a day 52 weeks of the year. $\:D/$

Yeah doke why don't you show us what a proponent of "free" health care you are and provide it for FREE. No form of income of any kind.
I'll tell you again doke you have no right to other peoples labor (doctors providing a service) or other peoples money (people's wages who provide the money for the service.)
Tell me doke if you think this unsustainable system of yours is going to be around indefinitely, how is it going to be funded? I ask this in all seriousness as your government is having just as many problems as mine is in selling it's debt. The U.S. federal reserve has monetized 260 billion dollars because it cannot sell it on the open market. The UK government is having just as many problems selling it's debt. Sorry doke the math doesn't lie something has to give government cuts of services first so that it can save itself. Always has been that way always will be. I'm a student of history and governments come and go through out it. This time will be no different. Your inability to recognize the signs of unsustainability is not my problem, but it will soon be yours.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:57 am

doke wrote:Ride on dex you have the idea,that saber comes from another planet its called planet no care only profit matters hahaha

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that or implied it. I just said government price controls don't work. I've already told you morons that if you want health care cost to go down then to get government involvement out of the way. America's health care prices are determined by pricing models by what the government will pay for.

before you make a comment like that again. Why don't you know what the hell you are talking about. You prove your stupidity in every post you make. No idea of how things work in reality yet make suggestions of how you WANT things to work. As the saying goes. %&$! in one hand and want in the other. Tell me which one get's full first.

doke · Post by **doke** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:29 am

saber we can afford healthcare our nhs as i said is non profit making,we pay for it through a national insurance scheme that has worked very well since 1948 do you not think that by now it is not well established.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:50 am

doke wrote:saber we can afford healthcare our nhs as i said is non profit making,we pay for it through a national insurance scheme that has worked very well since 1948 do you not think that by now it is not well established.

Doke are you really this dense or do you intentionally want to live in a fantasy world?

Here is your current debt statistics:
Total UK personal debt
Total UK personal debt at the end of June 2009 stood at £1,458bn (That's 1.4 TRILLION pounds doke). This has slowed further to 1.2% in the last 12 months which equates to an increase of ~ £14.35bn (the increase was ~£116bn in January 2008).

Total secured lending on dwellings at the end of June 2009 stood at £1,227bn. The twelve-month growth rate fell further, by 0.2 percentage points to 1.1%.

Total consumer credit lending to individuals at the end of June 2009 was £231bn. The annual growth rate of consumer credit continued to fall, to 1.9%.
Total lending in June 2009 grew by £0.4bn; secured lending grew by £0.3bn in the month; consumer credit lending grew by £0.1bn (total lending in January 2008 grew by £8.4bn).

Average household debt in the UK is ~ £9,240 (excluding mortgages). This figure increases to £21,480 if the average is based on the number of households who actually have some form of unsecured loan.

Average household debt in the UK is ~ £58,320 (including mortgages).
If you add to this the 2009 budget figure for public sector net debt (PSND) expected in 2013-14 then this figure rises to £116,160 per household.

Average owed by every UK adult is ~ £30,460 (including mortgages).

UK GDP is a paltry 2.13 Trillion a year. With unemployment rising and creditor nations not buying up UK debt, your government is being pushed into a corner. How you can ignore the obvious and think that your health care isn't in jeopardy really shows a lack of intelligence or you're in severe denial. So which is it?.

UK unemployment is 7.8% out of 60 million people. And you think you're going to be able to fund it indefinitely? The Roman empire was well established too, and it collapsed in time. Even your own empire collapsed after WWI. All things come to an end. You are not a self sufficient nation. If you were you would at the bare minimum be breaking even. I.E. No surprlus and no debt. Not a 1.4 trillion pound debt. Get real doke your system is not going to be around forever. Like I said 3-5 years tops since your nation is having such a hard time selling its debt. You're a fool if you think or believe otherwise. If not, refute my claims and these numbers. If you can't then you should know by now that I am right. You saying the system is staying doesn't mean it will.

doke · Post by **doke** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:20 am

if we are in so much debt which i am not myself so i am a lucky one,the country is i know but how is it we are still spending billions a day on a war which even the russian military could not win?
surly the nations health comes first? but i do not think us in uk will exceipt shutting down the nhs any polital party that even suggested it would be finished.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:52 am

doke wrote:if we are in so much debt which i am not myself so i am a lucky one,the country is i know but how is it we are still spending billions a day on a war which even the russian military could not win?
surly the nations health comes first? but i do not think us in uk will exceipt shutting down the nhs any polital party that even suggested it would be finished.

Face it doke, the US and the UK are broke. They won't have to suggest getting rid national health care as it's not an option for them. The U.S. is at a point that if they implement this our creditor nations will walk away and not purchase anymore treasuries. Your country is even rumored to be facing a credit down grade.

Supporting it won't be an option. It will collapse on it's own.

Don't believe me look at the numbers yourself. YOUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND STANDARD OF LIVING ARE UNSUSTAINABLE, the same goes for my country.

It doesn't matter if they spend billions on the military, they won't have that option either.

doke · Post by **doke** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:52 am

i know saber it is worse than we thought, heaven help us i think taxes are going to rise,which gets me on to another subject the way british motorists are ripped off by the gov in tax.Ithink i may get a smart for two next year as petrol at over £5 a gall,as we only sell it know in ltrs its about 1.09 ltr and rising again,more than half that cost is tax so gov are getting billions out of us?

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:05 pm

doke wrote:i know saber it is worse than we thought, heaven help us i think taxes are going to rise,which gets me on to another subject the way british motorists are ripped off by the gov in tax.Ithink i may get a smart for two next year as petrol at over £5 a gall,as we only sell it know in ltrs its about 1.09 ltr and rising again,more than half that cost is tax so gov are getting billions out of us?

That's what governments do. Do not trust them, do not help them, and do not asking anything from them. Governments are there to enslave and they've been doing it for thousands of years.

The UK and US financial situation is VERY bad indeed. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done. You are witnessing the last official act of our governments. As the quote from the unknown author goes. "The last official act of government is to loot the treasury." Right before your very eyes in both countries you are watching history unfold as both countries near collapse.

Like I said, don't count on health care, or any other government service as in the future it will more than likely not be there.

What collapsed the system? Greed and government, the 2 have been partners for centuries. Why would that change? Because we have technology now? Because we call ourselves "modern"? Nope it's human nature and it is predictable if you watch and learn form the people who came before us.

ShaveTail · Post by **ShaveTail** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:20 pm

We have no money pay for healthcare for sick, broke tax payers who have had their jobs shipped to Mexico by corporate interests hiding behind the GOP, NAFTA and the WTO (the first W of which should be for Wal-Mart, not World). But we didn't blink at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, total cost roughly 900 BILLION (with a B) at present and still rising. Obama's plan looks like it was written by a child, but hell--we've GOT to do something

The money is there, Saber28, the question is what we've chosen to do with it.

You seem to suggest that there isn't any income and that the United States and United Kingdom are doomed which isn't the case. Franklin Roosevelt knew it during the last Depression and he already spelled out exactly what we have to do: save Democracy by reforming its excesses. Then, as now, we hit a point of critical mass where the solution was either revolution or reform. This brought Social Security among others, and added a safety net while the situation stabilized. George Bush's cronies already did the looting of the Free World with their wars, driving up oil and munitions prices and walked away with bulging pockets.

The real solution would be jobs--REAL jobs, with benefits, not Wal-Mart jobs where 37 hours at $10 an hour is full time and health care has a large co-pay, serious deductibles, and little coverage anyway (but $4 generics!!). We aren't going it get it. Big Business has the United States in a strangle hold because of campaign contribution laws--they have bought our politicians. The least we can ask for in return is a little dignity when we are sick. But maybe weak peasants are preferred.

Blank-slate for the 'war on terror,' whatever the hell that is, but no substantial reform to health care since the Great Society program of the 1960s. Pathetic.

Jocko59 · Post by **Jocko59** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:29 pm

Wow, another moveon.org douchebag posting. That's terrific.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:16 pm

ShaveTail wrote:We have no money pay for healthcare for sick, broke tax payers who have had their jobs shipped to Mexico by corporate interests hiding behind the GOP, NAFTA and the WTO (the first W of which should be for Wal-Mart, not World). But we didn't blink at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, total cost roughly 900 BILLION (with a B) at present and still rising. Obama's plan looks like it was written by a child, but hell--we've GOT to do something

I agree, and I already suggested what to do. GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF HEALTH CARE!!!!!! Prices will collapse within weeks. With price collapse you no longer need insurance. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The money is there, Saber28, the question is what we've chosen to do with it. You seem to suggest that there isn't any income and that the United States and United Kingdom are doomed which isn't the case. Franklin Roosevelt knew it during the last Depression and he already spelled out exactly what we have to do: save Democracy by reforming its excesses. Then, as now, we hit a point of critical mass where the solution was either revolution or reform. This brought Social Security among others, and added a safety net while the situation stabilized. George Bush's cronies already did the looting of the Free World with their wars, driving up oil and munitions prices and walked away with bulging pockets.

Really? Where? Are you looking at the same statistics I am? Because last I looked the U.S. was 11.7 TRILLION (with a T) in debt. So if the money is there. Where is it? You can't save democracy. Democracies have a life span of about 200 years, after that they collapse because mob rule DOES NOT WORK. Which is why the United States of America was founded as a REPUBLIC. Getting rid of the ignorance that this is a "democracy" would do a lot of getting rid of the excess. You or anyone for that matter has no right to my property, my labor, or my services. Get rid of excess by getting rid of about 90% of government. Social Slavery (which is EXACTLY what it is, if you don't believe me, try to opt out of it.) isn't a safety net. With the current depression steam rolling along without hesitation the social slavery PONZI SCHEME is due to start deficit spending by 2011. Look up the definition of a ponzi scheme and social slavery fits it to a T. The first ones in benefit the most, the last ones in are left holding the bag. It was a stop gap, nothing else and needs to be dissolved. Let the baby boomers be the last to collect, and let Generations X and Y opt out of it to save for their OWN retirement. But that's the catch. You can't because there is no fund, it's a pay as you go. So it will collapse whether you or anyone else doesn't want it too or not. Boomers out number Gen X and Y by a 3 to 1 ratio no matter how you slice it, you won't be able to fund it. Poof there goes social slavery.

George Bush was a complete corrupt moron, you'll get no argument from me. But the root of the robbery takes place in 1913 with the Federal Reserve act. The looting of the "free world" (what a joke, this country hasn't been free since the civil war) started long before you or I or anyone currently alive was even born. Bankers run the world, and the corporations, oil, mineral rights, and any other profit driven endeavor is squarely in the pocket of bankers. Follow the money as the saying goes. Don't just say you will, go down the rabbit hole and see the world for what it really is. There is no democrat, there is no republican, there is only a banker pawn. There is no president, prime minister, or head of state, all are sock puppets to the global bankers.

The real solution would be jobs--REAL jobs, with benefits, not Wal-Mart jobs where 37 hours at $10 an hour is full time and health care has a large co-pay, serious deductibles, and little coverage anyway (but $4 generics!!). We aren't going it get it. Big Business has the United States in a strangle hold because of campaign contribution laws--they have bought our politicians. The least we can ask for in return is a little dignity when we are sick. But maybe weak peasants are preferred.

Blank-slate for the 'war on terror,' whatever the hell that is, but no substantial reform to health care since the Great Society program of the 1960s. Pathetic.

Wrong, the real solution is to get government out of controlling every aspect of a so called "free" society. You want freedom or you want socialism/communism? The choice is yours. Freedom requires PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY yeah I know, scary word, but if you get into an accident and ruin someone's car you should be held at fault if it's your fault. But if Government was out of the way, and we had a sound money system a car wouldn't cost 20-30 grand, but a couple thousand dollars of gold/silver/hours of labor, whatever you can agree on as payment. Instead you choose government sanctioned insurance company's who pay your congressman to vote the way THEY want. You think this health bill will be any different you've got another thing coming.

That blank slate continues under your Idiot in chief barry Soetoro err I mean Obama. That reform you speak of was a power grab by the government to control health care, reforming it this time leaves it solely in their possession, all with the stamp of approval of that racist bigot LBJ and a drunken harlot murder Ted Kennedy. You need to read up on your history and why things are the way they are. You'll soon discover that this health care bill is a legislative disaster and you'll look back wishing it was back with insurance provisions.

ShaveTail · Post by **ShaveTail** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:33 pm

You know Saber28, what anarchists like you never have is a replacement plan. Your solution is to yank the Government (capital G) out of...well, everything and 'let it collapse.' Friend, you'd be one of the first to scream when the Clockwork Orange gangs kick in your door and rape your family. And since when has removing regulation led to betterment for anyone but a corporate stooge? I agree with you: LBJ was a war mongering racist fool; Ted Kennedy was a murderer; Franklin Roosevelt was just one side of a pompous, rich equation all around; Teddy Roosevelt helped start American Imperialism during the Spanish American War; Thomas Jefferson owned slaves; George Washington almost single handedly started the French and Indian War to secure land rights in Ohio. Politicians are corrupt, always have been and always will be. But in the process they can do some good things--LBJ started Vietnam, but also spearheaded Civil Rights and the Great Society. Of the Roosevelts Teddy took Progressivism national and Franklin helped keep the country out of a civil war. Washington and Jefferson were hypocrites, but they were better than the alternative. Many of their motives were self-aggrandizing and lousy.

Self-proclaimed Libertarians like you seem to think that no government at all will somehow put you into Locke's beautiful state of natural freedom. Can't, won't, and never will happen because it is an abstract concept that doesn't exist. Locke posited that Government existed as an intentional construct because SOCIETY exists. You simply cannot put more than five or ten people onto a square mile or so of land without it or life becomes a free-for-all. Disagreements become arguments, arguments become fights, and eventually a warlord arises--and we're back to Government, and a brutal one at that. Even if you argue for minimal oversight you have the same problem: somebody ends up on top and can say #$%! the rest. We've already been down this road in late 1890s. Arise the tenement and the hovel, the destitute with nothing at all. Sure--we have that now. But it's NOTHING like the unregulated Free Market. Basic human nature is to take and take and take until nothing is left; unless somebody makes you give something back. It doesn't matter much for most people; we don't make enough to have a substantial impact anyway. But that top one percent that controls 90% of the world's capital...THEY'RE the ones that benefit from your lawless Utopia. If you have nothing you can have as much "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" as you want; it doesn't matter at all if you are frugal with your $10k a year, and I know because I've had to do it before. It isn't that I wasn't responsible or didn't work hard; I have four degrees that I paid for myself. But I haven't had the OPPORTUNITY to do more because I wasn't born into a family fortune, I was born into a lower middle class family in a world spiraling toward another financial disaster brought on by a LACK OF REGULATION OF THE STOCK MARKET, HOUSING MARKET, BANKING MARKET , and CREDIT INDUSTRY and a manufactured war. I take responsibility for my debts and have never missed a payment, but I also can't afford my own health insurance. It is expensive not because of the government, but because no employer is forced to help me pay for it (by the G O V E R N M E N T) and because doctors and Big Pharma can charge anything they want--what are we going to do, not pay it?? I can't just not take anti-biotics when I'm sick, or not go to the hospital if I am hit by a car. AND in spite of the mark-up, modern diagnostic tests, treatments, and surgeries are legitimately expensive--fatcat markup or no, neither of us could pay for a round of cancer treatments by ourselves.

Believe what you like. Neither of us will change the outcome of the issue, to say nothing of order of the world.

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:03 am

ShaveTail wrote:You know Saber28, what anarchists like you never have is a replacement plan. Your solution is to yank the Government (capital G) out of...well, everything and 'let it collapse.' Friend, you'd be one of the first to scream when the Clockwork Orange gangs kick in your door and rape your family. And since when has removing regulation led to betterment for anyone but a corporate stooge? I agree with you: LBJ was a war mongering racist fool; Ted Kennedy was a murderer; Franklin Roosevelt was just one side of a pompous, rich equation all around; Teddy Roosevelt helped start American Imperialism during the Spanish American War; Thomas Jefferson owned slaves; George Washington almost single handedly started the French and Indian War to secure land rights in Ohio. Politicians are corrupt, always have been and always will be. But in the process they can do some good things--LBJ started Vietnam, but also spearheaded Civil Rights and the Great Society. Of the Roosevelts Teddy took Progressivism national and Franklin helped keep the country out of a civil war. Washington and Jefferson were hypocrites, but they were better than the alternative. Many of their motives were self-aggrandizing and lousy.

Umm I already said you just fail to listen (read) Have the government follow and respect its enumerated powers granted to it by the Constitution. I am not an Anarchists. Anarchy DOES NOT WORK. Where does it say that the government has to back stop bankers with trillions of yours and mine dollars? It doesn't. All I want is for the government to be bound to the same universal laws that you and I have to follow. Is that too much to ask? Jefferson wanted to free the slaves during the first drafting of the Constitution but was persuaded that it should be left as is for another fight. Does that make him a hypocrite or knowing which battles to fight? I choose to believe the latter as he was already busy founding a new country. Slavery would of ended like it did in every other country in the world without a civil war due to technological advancements. The civil war was the Federal Government not respecting states rights. I am a strong admirer of Jefferson as he hated bankers as much as anyone I can remember. Washington was a banker buddy and agreed with Hamilton on a national bank. Luckily Jefferson killed that idea during his term, and Hamilton ended up getting a bullet from Aaron Burr during a duel.

Self-proclaimed Libertarians like you seem to think that no government at all will somehow put you into Locke's beautiful state of natural freedom. Can't, won't, and never will happen because it is an abstract concept that doesn't exist. Locke posited that Government existed as an intentional construct because SOCIETY exists. You simply cannot put more than five or ten people onto a square mile or so of land without it or life becomes a free-for-all. Disagreements become arguments, arguments become fights, and eventually a warlord arises--and we're back to Government, and a brutal one at that. Even if you argue for minimal oversight you have the same problem: somebody ends up on top and can say #$%! the rest. We've already been down this road in late 1890s. Arise the tenement and the hovel, the destitute with nothing at all. Sure--we have that now. But it's NOTHING like the unregulated Free Market. Basic human nature is to take and take and take until nothing is left; unless somebody makes you give something back. It doesn't matter much for most people; we don't make enough to have a substantial impact anyway. But that top one percent that controls 90% of the world's capital...THEY'RE the ones that benefit from your lawless Utopia. If you have nothing you can have as much "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" as you want; it doesn't matter at all if you are frugal with your $10k a year, and I know because I've had to do it before. It isn't that I wasn't responsible or didn't work hard; I have four degrees that I paid for myself.

I respectfully request that you not put words in my mouth. You just prove your own ignorance of the subject at hand if go around throwing labels on people. I am NOT a Libertarian. As I've already said, return government to it's constitutional cage, and you'll enjoy the outcome much more than having a government rule over every facet of your life.

But I haven't had the OPPORTUNITY to do more because I wasn't born into a family fortune, I was born into a lower middle class family in a world spiraling toward another financial disaster brought on by a LACK OF REGULATION OF THE STOCK MARKET, HOUSING MARKET, BANKING MARKET , and CREDIT INDUSTRY and a manufactured war.

This is almost comical who do you think is responsible for the lack of regulation in the stock market? The Glass-stegall act was revoked in 1999 under the Clinton administration. That regulation was put in place after the last great depression to prevent banks from investing in markets that they shouldn't be in. The person responsible for that is Robert Rubin, a former Goldman Sachs CEO and was secretary of treasury under Bill Clinton. You can blame lack of opportunity also at the feet of government as they give tax incentives to corporations who take their business overseas for cheaper labor, and don’t even make them pay tariffs on the “returned” goods because the business is housed in the U.S.
You aren’t the only one born into a lower class family so you can’t use that as an excuse I survived on 5k a year after I was out of the military practically homeless. Go play your crying game somewhere else. Your life is what you make it. I never took on any debt for my education, and I didn’t finish either degree I was working towards after my G.I. bill ran out. I’m not about to incur debt to keep enriching my slave master. I am what you would call a bad slave.

I take responsibility for my debts and have never missed a payment, but I also can't afford my own health insurance. It is expensive not because of the government, but because no employer is forced to help me pay for it (by the G O V E R N M E N T) and because doctors and Big Pharma can charge anything they want--what are we going to do, not pay it?? I can't just not take anti-biotics when I'm sick, or not go to the hospital if I am hit by a car. AND in spite of the mark-up, modern diagnostic tests, treatments, and surgeries are legitimately expensive--fatcat markup or no, neither of us could pay for a round of cancer treatments by ourselves.

I take responsibility for my debt by not getting into debt. I learned early on how this fraudulent system works. Look up the history of banking, or money as debt, and you’ll begin the journey of discovery. Right now you have no clue how it works and think that the money you took out as a loan actually existed before you requested it. You are paying interest on money that came out of thin air. Go ahead and chew on that a while. You are paying interest on money that did not exist until you requested it, meaning the banker/loan officer whatever conjured the money up, gave it to you, and is demanding you pay him/her interest. It’s a f*cking fraud and a joke that hardly anyone realizes it.
As far as health care cost, go look down that rabbit hole too. I’ll give you a hint, Medicaid and Medicare are used as bench marks for pricing out services. Meaning whatever the government will pay is what the health care “industry” will charge. There isn’t 2 different price models one for you and one for the government. You are in essence paying for both. So good luck with that health care bill, it’s another tragic joke being played on the American people.

You really are clueless aren’t you? The top 1 percent are the oligarchs running your government. They take from you and give to themselves. They would not benefit from “lawlessness” as the government wouldn’t be there to back stop their corporations who made bad investments. They would be RESPONSIBLE for their own prosperity not shoving the debt into OUR laps and forcing us to pay for it. Unless you consider the role of government to keep back stopping banks and corporations who wrote fraudulent loans the role of government. Somehow I don’t think you believe that it is. Government exist, by, for the bankers. NOT YOU!! Look who is supporting this health care bill, and then look who is bank rolling them. Why is it that big pharma has been having meetings with barry err I mean Obama at the white house? They stand to benefit IMMENSELY if this bill passes as there will no longer be people who cannot afford to pay since everyone will be FORCED to pay through increase in taxation to pay for it.

WAKE UP, do yourself a favor and learn how this system works before you advocate making changes to it.

ShaveTail · Post by **ShaveTail** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:46 am

I respectfully request that you not put words in my mouth. You just prove your own ignorance of the subject at hand if go around throwing labels on people. I am NOT a Libertarian. As I've already said, return government to it's constitutional cage, and you'll enjoy the outcome much more than having a government rule over every facet of your life.

You aren't a Libertarian, eh?

As YOU said:

the real solution is to get government out of controlling every aspect of a so called "free" society.

lib·er·tar·i·an (lbr-târ-n)
n.
1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

I take responsibility for my debt by not getting into debt.

OH! It's so simple! Why didn't I think of that! I just don't NEED money! Actually ace, I didn't borrow a dime for my education. And...

Right now you have no clue how it works and think that the money you took out as a loan actually existed before you requested it. You are paying interest on money that came out of thin air. Go ahead and chew on that a while. You are paying interest on money that did not exist until you requested it, meaning the banker/loan officer whatever conjured the money up, gave it to you, and is demanding you pay him/her interest.

The alternative to THAT is a return to the Gold Standard, which turned the 1929 economic downturn INTO the Great Depression. When times are bad the scary Government has to go into deficient spending; modern governments can't just spend exactly what they have when the tax revenue has been eroded like it had then and has now. If everyone cuts back--ala layoffs, chopped services, etc.--we just spiral down. Somebody has to pick up the slack and the Government is the only entity we have to do it. And we certainly aren't in debt because of social services. We're in debt because of thirty years of brush-fire wars and bad decisions benefiting corporate interests alone.

You can blame lack of opportunity also at the feet of government as they give tax incentives to corporations who take their business overseas for cheaper labor, and don’t even make them pay tariffs on the “returned” goods because the business is housed in the U.S.
You aren’t the only one born into a lower class family so you can’t use that as an excuse I survived on 5k a year after I was out of the military practically homeless. Go play your crying game somewhere else. Your life is what you make it. I never took on any debt for my education, and I didn’t finish either degree I was working towards after my G.I. bill ran out. I’m not about to incur debt to keep enriching my slave master. I am what you would call a bad slave.

Your life is what you make of it, eh? So anybody can be anything, follow your heart, live the American dream, right? ANY of us could be a senator, anyone the next Bill Gates, the great Land of Opportunity...if you inherit enough money, or rip off IBM designs at the right time and build a competition-limiting monopoly. You've watched to many episodes of Fraggle Rock--but then, you've already 'been all that you can be,' eh? AH. Mindless soldier, college dropout. That explains a lot.

Medicaid and Medicare are used as bench marks for pricing out services. Meaning whatever the government will pay is what the health care “industry” will charge. There isn’t 2 different price models one for you and one for the government. You are in essence paying for both. So good luck with that health care bill, it’s another tragic joke being played on the American people.

Suuuuureeee. An MRI would be $100 if government Medicaid wasn't willing to pay $2k. That'll pay off the R&D, installation expense, maintenance expense, staff, etc.

Childish tirade. Bye now. Hope life in the compound is fun and exciting!

Saber28 · Post by **Saber28** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:34 am

lib·er·tar·i·an (lbr-târ-n)
n.
1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

Libertarian is a modern term. I'm a Jeffersonian if you must throw out a label to fit your small world view.

The alternative to THAT is a return to the Gold Standard, which turned the 1929 economic downturn INTO the Great Depression. When times are bad the scary Government has to go into deficient spending; modern governments can't just spend exactly what they have when the tax revenue has been eroded like it had then and has now. If everyone cuts back--ala layoffs, chopped services, etc.--we just spiral down. Somebody has to pick up the slack and the Government is the only entity we have to do it. And we certainly aren't in debt because of social services. We're in debt because of thirty years of brush-fire wars and bad decisions benefiting corporate interests alone.

WRONG The federal reserve caused the great depression. Bernanke even said as such before he was the FED chairman. quoted HERE: http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS ... efault.htm

We're in debt because the government spends more than what it takes in. Just like if you spent more than you earn you go into debt. There is no difference just larger numbers. What happened to the mini depression in 1907? Ohh yeah the government did nothing, the banks that made bad decisions went under and the larger banks that bought them were able to turn a profit, by selling off it's valuable assets. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare are called UNFUNDED LIABILITIES which total 99 trillion dollars. So don't try shoving that horse %&$! around as gospel truth as it's NOT. 99 trillion unfunded liabilities source: http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/ ... 080528.cfm

You know nothing go read your own history instead of me spoon feeding it to you, and yet YOU STILL spout off idiotic drivel as if it was somehow fact. You didn't know this country was a Republic, you called it a "democracy." You call me a "Libertarian" because you like to throw labels around to make your model view of the world where everything fits into some little box of YOUR choosing.

Your life is what you make of it, eh? So anybody can be anything, follow your heart, live the American dream, right? ANY of us could be a senator, anyone the next Bill Gates, the great Land of Opportunity...if you inherit enough money, or rip off IBM designs at the right time and build a competition-limiting monopoly. You've watched to many episodes of Fraggle Rock--but then, you've already 'been all that you can be,' eh? AH. Mindless soldier, college dropout. That explains a lot.

It could be if you got the corrupt government out of the way, and morons quit wanting to give it more control over their lives. But people always learn the hard way. So I'm not holding my breath. I wasn't a soldier and some of the dumbest people I've ever met have a degree. Hell you have 4 of them (so you've said anyway) and still didn't know we were a Republic. So what did you get with all that "education"? Evidently not a lot, and apparently didn't even give you much of an "opportunity" since you're still on here crying like a cry baby about corporations taking the tax benefit your favorite government is giving them for moving jobs overseas. Again your "education" explains a lot. I got where I am with no debt, and a comfortable living situation by having a WORK ETHIC and being smarter than your average bear. Success is whatever you want it to be. If you look at extremely rich people and attempt to get where they are, you are going to be sorely disappointed as the system is geared to support them, NOT YOU! Yet you call me a "Mindless soldier" the term mindless sheep suits you better as I've proved I do have a mind and can think independently. You on the other hand just spout off mindless drivel that you "feel" is correct yet facts speak otherwise. In your frustration you attempt to resort to name calling and insults but just like the rest of your "arguments" you fail miserably.

Suuuuureeee. An MRI would be $100 if government Medicaid wasn't willing to pay $2k. That'll pay off the R&D, installation expense, maintenance expense, staff, etc.

Childish tirade. Bye now. Hope life in the compound is fun and exciting

Why you leaving? You haven't made any points of contention and just proved that you know absolutely nothing about a system you want changed. You are absolutely clueless about a free market. Thank god you don't have any other opportunities provided to you so you can't go out and mess up anything else. Your lack of intelligence and basic understanding of our political and economic system is rampant among Americans in general so do don't feel too bad for being completely ignorant. An MRI would be 100 dollars if not less if government wasn't setting a bottom in it's pricing models. But again I might as well be discussing price models with a brick wall at least the brick wall won't argue back disproved and communistic population/price controls designed to rule over ignorant morons who don't ask questions and go along to get along. Hey Mr. 4 degree's what monetary system do we have here in the United States? Come on tell me Mr. 4 degree's show me you at least got "educated" from college. If you really do have 4 degree's it's a tragic comedy that you spent that much time being indoctrinated with socialist/communist ideas, and think that they are the way things work. Yet you paid for it all.. HA HA HA HA now that is funny. I saw the game for what it is, and quit contributing to fund the chains of my own enslavement. Yet you lick the hand that feeds you. Get back to work SHEEP a banker needs a bailout.

There's a reason they are called diploma mills. You pay the rate you get a piece of paper and you're on your way.

I'll leave you with a quote I live by from Mark Twain:

I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.

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