Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Joanne · Post by **Joanne** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:20 pm

(Not sure which is the appropriate page to post this .. General? Experimental? LLLT? I figure this will get more eyeballs since it's a busier page. Sam/OMG, feel free to move it to another page if appropriate.)

We all know there are two schools of thought on increasing blood flow to the scalp -- you're either nourishing your follicles or bombarding them with more DHT and lymphocytic inflammation. Both are theories are plausible.

Zixcreator posted somewhere on here (I can't find it) that he's long argued that increasing blood flow/circulation can make things worse. To me, this is the real paradox. Why are we taking all these supplements and eating healthy if not to nourish the follicles through our bloodstreams? But if that blood flow is loaded with damaging agents, then aren't we just making it worse?

Jdp710's post, "Low-Level Laser Therapy is Now a Do-It-Yourself Hair Loss Treatment " gave me an idea. The last sentence of his post is:

"Two of the most significant effects of low-level laser light in wound healing and in pain control, Dr. Unger said, are improved arterial and venous blood flow and decreased inflammation."

So, maybe it isn't either/or. Maybe the increased blood flow does result in more DHT and inflammatory cells ... BUT ... even thought LLLT increases circulation, at the same time it's decreasing inflammation. So maybe, the follicles are finally getting the nutrients, oxygen, etc ... all the things that poor circulation impacts, but at the same time, the inflammation response is being mitagated.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts about this. I've been thinking about what a paradox this circulation issue is since reading zixcreater's post. And jdp710's post made a little lightbulb go off in my head.

TheFunkyStumpfighter · Post by **TheFunkyStumpfighter** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:51 pm

Yeah, Zixcreators post got me thinking about it too. Ive been using a dermaroller and doing the whole hot/cold/hot/cold thing in the shower to increase blood flow, and I can say I honestly only get good sensations from it (especially when I do the hot/cold water thing in the shower just before putting my laser helmet on. Its the only time I get sensations from the lasers, and they last a good half hour after Ive taken it off).

From what Ive heard, most of the DHT that attacks your hair is created locally, though I dont know if increased testosterone necessarily correlates with increased DHT, and I dont know if its even a fact. Thing is, though, when I think of increased blood flow, I think of an increase over what is normal, and to my knowledge people who suffer from pattern baldness have worse than normal blood flow to the scalp. This begs the question: if increased blood flow can have adverse effects, does this apply to blood flow thats greater than baseline on a scalp that has very little blood flow as it is, or just to blood flow on a scalp that has no issue with blood flow in the first place? An overabundance of blood may or may not be a bad thing (as far as growing hair is concerned), but the problems that stem from too little blood are many and well documented.

Im gonna follow my body on this one, as my scalp feels really good when its pink and pulsing, and if its about playing the odds, I feel as though Ive placed my bet on the favorite to win.

OverMachoGrande · Post by **OverMachoGrande** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:59 pm

Hey, guys, Joanne!

Ok, first of all... we don't know the specifics at all of the guy in the auto accident, and it's just one case... and we are just ASSUMING that the injury on the side of his head limited the blood flow. How do we know -in fact- that the injury didn't INCREASE the blood flow? The healing process could have completely revamped the veins/arteries/capillaries/lymph drainage, etc. Just a point that I have to make! lol... So, we could be 180 degrees wrong about what is going on there -and we know that often things aren't how they seem anyway.

For example... remember the dermatologist at the skin care site that made that long post on how he theorized that lasers weren't good because their mechanism was to irritate the follicles into producing new hair, therefore they wouldn't be good in the long term? Ok, how backwards and wrong is that?! He didn't know the first thing about what he was talking about, and this guy was a doctor that should know better -and in this case most of us here don't have anything to do with the medical field and see injuries and how they behave afterwards. The point I'm making is that this doctor looked at a situation, and then applied what he erroneously thought must be happening because lasers can burn his cd's on his Mac PowerBook -without any realization that they are actually therapeutic. ...And to make matters worse... people were agreeing with him! lol...

Now, the guy could have regrown his hair because the blood flow was blocked -but we don't know that!

I'll try to give a very bumbling explanation about how I feel about this, though. We know that hanging from the ceiling by your legs isn't going to help matters, yet it does increase blood flow and it would probably increase capillary size as well. However, things like lasers increase blood flow, too, and they DO help. So, perhaps a big reason is THE BLOOD ITSELF. Irradiated blood is BETTER BLOOD. That's proven with all of the info here: http://www.hairlossfight.com/forums/vie ... =31&t=1291. I can't think of a better name for it than "better blood" with all of those benefits! lol...

I'd imagine that "better blood" would allow your body to take care of itself better, and among other things... eradicate some of that DHT roaming around up there. It would "take out the trash" as well as adding additional nutrients. Plus... "better blood" REDUCES/CURES INFLAMMATION, where as regular, cruddy blood can exacerbate it!

So, if you merely increase the supply of "mudblood" -unirradiated crappy blood- it's not going to do you any favors and could indeed do you more harm.

Plus, it's been proven that laser therapy ACTUALLY CREATES NEW CAPILLARIES. So, you're not just INCREASING the blood flow, you are able to get more nutrients to an area that wasn't getting it like it should be.

Those are my thoughts about it! I could be right, I could be wrong, but there you go...

-O.M.G.

cuebreeze · Post by **cuebreeze** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:34 pm

Hey joanna, id like to have a go at answering this on some recent reading.

When the blood temperature is low, More hormones are sent through the blood to the part of the body with the cold blood.

Now, notice when we sleep, it is always on the non mpb areas that we rest out head on (where hairloss generally doesnt occur).

The temperature on the non mpb area would be much warmer as it has pressure put on it for 8hours+ per day.

This temperature i amagine would be much greater than the mpb area when we sleep which would send all the hormones to the part of the scalp which is alot cooler (the mpb area which has no pressure on it) No pressure = low temperature.

This could be treated possibly by heating up the mpb areas blood.

cuebreeze · Post by **cuebreeze** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:36 pm

Also just look how alot of balding man have slight recession near there side burns (this could be due to the slight difference in angle that the head hits your pillow over night.

zixcreator · Post by **zixcreator** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:21 pm

I'm not necessisarily saying increasing blood flow is bad. I just have my doubts about the whole subject so I'm throwing this out there to get other people's ideas. Here's my post from the other thread:

I believe that improving blood flow to the scalp will accelerate hair loss. Improving blood flow is not the answer.

I once read a story (I forgot to bookmark it) about a balding guy who suffered a nasty scalp laceration due to an automobile accident. The result was that blood flow to half of his scalp was permanently reduced. The end result was some of his hair grew back..... on the side with the reduced blood flow!

In Belgium there are surgeons and hairclinics who are offering galeatomie and 'onderbinding'(blood breaches above the ears will be burned, so less blood supply to the head will be the consequence) to the treatment as a solution against hairloss. Belgium is not exactly a third world country. They are a nation of rules and laws. If this type of surgery is allowed then it would seem to me there would be proof of efficacy. Even Dr Proctor has commented that he suspects this surgery probably works.

Dr Lee has said many times that increasing blood flow to the scalp will not in any way help with male pattern baldness. But I've never read where it could actually make matters worse.

To my feeble mind, increasing blood flow simply promotes inflammation. Why does applying ice reduce inflammation? Because it reduces blood flow to the area. There are plenty of vasoldilators besides minoxidil. None of them grow hair as far as I've heard.I believe that improving blood flow to the scalp will accelerate hair loss. Improving blood flow is not the answer.

zixcreator · Post by **zixcreator** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:51 pm

OMG....I will try to explain away your comments as best I can about lasers etc. increasing blood flow.

There are really two kinds of "increased blood flow". The first kind is temporary and lasts only a short period of time. The second is chronic and lasts 24/7. Short term blood flow is good.....because it reduces chronic, long term blood flow/inflammation. Chronic blood flow is bad. Here's how I think this happens.

Short term blood flow, I believe occurs because of a histamine release. However, the precursors of this histamine release gradually get used up. This results in a chronic condition of lowered histamine release.

Remember when you were the guy that learned cayenne was an antiinflammatory? Why would that be? God the stuff irritates your skin and causes a temporary increase in blood flow. But long term I believe these histamine precursors get used up. Once they are used up the normal mild histamine releases that go on in our scalps 24 hours a day are diminished. So long term we have a drop in blood flow and a drop in inflammation....a drop in irritation.....a drop in itching....a great feeling on your scalp.....does this sound like some of your laser results?

Take a 5% azelaic acid solution and apply it to your scalp for the first time.....you will feel a burning sensation and your scalp will redden (because of histamine release and increased blood flow). Keep applying it everyday for a couple of weeks and it won't burn at all....That's because (I think) because you have used up all the histamine precursors and your body can no longer make an histamine release. Azelaic acid is also an antiinflammatory.

How do you deal with chronic nasal allergies? You inject the thing you are allergic to once a month into your arm......those mast cells for making that particular histamine release are used up causing swelling and redness in your arm.....and therefore there isn't much left to inflame your nasal passages. This can last for weeks.

So why do lasers work....because they are antinflammatories despite the short term histamine release.

What do you think?

Don't get the same feeling from your laser helmet after you cut the grass? Could this be because of the histamine release in the bodies attempt to dilate blood vessels to cool off your head?

But that's not the only reason lasers work....at least I think. It seems to me when you wear your helmet you are sending a signal to your body that it is receiving enough of a particular wavelength of light. Therefore the body says "well since we are getting enough of that wavelength, there is no longer a reason to rid the top of our head of hair. So let's cut back on the DHT and stop the whole process". Afterall, isn't the top of our head the best place to go bald if you need to drink up more sunlight? If that is what is happening then the blood contains less DHT so increasing blood flow may not be too damaging.

But let's get back to the point....until someone can prove me wrong I think increasing blood flow to the head on a chronic basis only increases the amount of serum DHT that gets to our follicles.....and this is bad. All you do when you increase blood flow is help the body accomplish what it is trying to do. It is trying the clear away all the hair on the top of your head!

Anyones thoughts?

zixcreator · Post by **zixcreator** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:59 pm

So I guess what I'm saying is this. If serum DHT has been dramatically lowered...well increasing blood flow would be OK. But unless you do this first, increasing blood flow would be bad because it would subject the follicles to even more DHT.

zixcreator · Post by **zixcreator** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:03 pm

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas?

Joanne · Post by **Joanne** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:49 pm

I don't know. Still too many conflicting aspects. Not all inflammation involves swelling. I think what most MPB/FPHL sufferers experience is micro-inflammation and I do believe there's an auto-immune aspect to this ... the body attacking it's own tissues.

Clearly DHT is a factor, but everyone has DHT and yet some never experience hairloss. I don't claim to have the answers, but when the body attacks and destroys it's own healthy tissue, that's an auto-immune response. (I have Hashimoto's so this an aspect of my hair loss that's of particular interest to me.)

When I had my scalp biopsy, Dr White said the significant part of the results was the lymphocytic infiltrate around the hair follicles and mild fibrosis. That was 4 years ago, so maybe the fibrosis might not be so mild anymore.

So I've been especially focused on ways to reduce the fibrosis and inflammation and create a healthy environment for growth. I am definitely androgen sensitive. I have polycystic ovaries and hirsuitism. I've been on 200 mg spiro/day for 3 years with no real results (except for growing boobs like a cow, which I'm not crazy about).

The spiro eliminated my greasy scalp and actually helped improve my skin, but did nothing for hair loss. To me, it seems like micro-inflammation is a huge piece of the puzzle. What makes the body send all these lymphocytes to the scalp to attack healthy follicles on some people but not others? I don't think it's just increased blood flow. And while increased blood flow does deliver more DHT to the follicles, why do some people get the lymphocyte barrage and not others? I'll leave that up to the scientists.

The point of my original post was that maybe LLLT's anti-inflammatory effects might cancel out the effects of the androgen sensitivity in hair follicles, even WITH increased circulation. Just trying to figure out how it works. Something about those damned lymphocytes ...

Not saying I'm right or wrong. It's just a theory I've constructed from my own experience and too many hours on these boards. Doctors are useless. I respect the opinions I read here and hope others will post their thoughts on it too. But on a gut level ... I think LLLT's value and effectiveness lies in it's anti-inflammatory benefits.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:27 pm

Joanne wrote:I don't know. Still too many conflicting aspects. Not all inflammation involves swelling. I think what most MPB/FPHL sufferers experience is micro-inflammation

=D>

LaserKid · Post by **LaserKid** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:13 pm

If it is inflammation which causes hair loss is there any benefit in using non-steroidal anti-inflammatories such as ibuprofen etc in limiting the inflammatory process?

hapyman · Post by **hapyman** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:58 pm

I have Hashimoto's so this an aspect of my hair loss that's of particular interest to me.

Sorry off topic but...

Joanne are you taking Iodine and Selenium to treat your Hashimoto's?

Pete2 · Post by **Pete2** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:25 pm

Joanne wrote:(Not sure which is the appropriate page to post this .. General? Experimental? LLLT? I figure this will get more eyeballs since it's a busier page. Sam/OMG, feel free to move it to another page if appropriate.)

We all know there are two schools of thought on increasing blood flow to the scalp -- you're either nourishing your follicles or bombarding them with more DHT and lymphocytic inflammation. Both are theories are plausible.

Zixcreator posted somewhere on here (I can't find it) that he's long argued that increasing blood flow/circulation can make things worse. To me, this is the real paradox. Why are we taking all these supplements and eating healthy if not to nourish the follicles through our bloodstreams? But if that blood flow is loaded with damaging agents, then aren't we just making it worse?

Jdp710's post, "Low-Level Laser Therapy is Now a Do-It-Yourself Hair Loss Treatment " gave me an idea. The last sentence of his post is:

"Two of the most significant effects of low-level laser light in wound healing and in pain control, Dr. Unger said, are improved arterial and venous blood flow and decreased inflammation."

So, maybe it isn't either/or. Maybe the increased blood flow does result in more DHT and inflammatory cells ... BUT ... even thought LLLT increases circulation, at the same time it's decreasing inflammation. So maybe, the follicles are finally getting the nutrients, oxygen, etc ... all the things that poor circulation impacts, but at the same time, the inflammation response is being mitagated.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts about this. I've been thinking about what a paradox this circulation issue is since reading zixcreater's post. And jdp710's post made a little lightbulb go off in my head.

If you look at alot of the natural topicals that are marketed they all contain agents which improve bloodflow ie niacin, menthol etc. However in my own view, what is actually needed is a topical which lowers inflammation and boosts bloodflow as well as calming the immune response. Once you have this inplace you can add other agents to regenerate any damage already done to the follicles.

Regadrs
Pete

Joanne · Post by **Joanne** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:37 am

hapyman wrote:
I have Hashimoto's so this an aspect of my hair loss that's of particular interest to me.
Sorry off topic but...

Joanne are you taking Iodine and Selenium to treat your Hashimoto's?

Hi Hapyman,

Yes, I take Iodoral (1/day) and 100 mg of selenium. There's selenium in a few other things I take and too much is no good either. As for the Iodoral, I was taking 2/day for about 9 months and I went severely HYPERthyroid for a several months without actually realizing it. Instead of the usual "palpitations" symptoms of hyperthyroidism, my main symptom was a hot,sweaty scalp, accompanied by increased shedding and a drastic change in hair texture ... wirey, kinky and dry. I wasn't testing my TSH during that time because other than the intense scalp sweating (mostly in the occipital region, but also all over the scalp), I felt ok. But when I finally checked it after about 8-9 month, it was .0025. WAY too low. It did a lot of damage to my hair. Doc told me to cut back to 1/day and my TSH seems to be stable now, around 1.3-1.5. He also told me to stop self-medicating

I take Armour Thyroid and a small dose of Cytomel for the extra T3.

hapyman · Post by **hapyman** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:54 am

Nice it seems you are just at the maintenance stages. It may take awhile to bounce back but I bet you are heading in the right direction.

Joanne · Post by **Joanne** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:58 am

I really hope so. It's been a long, difficult ride. I want off. And I want my hair back

jdp710 · Post by **jdp710** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:50 am

LaserKid wrote:If it is inflammation which causes hair loss is there any benefit in using non-steroidal anti-inflammatories such as ibuprofen etc in limiting the inflammatory process?

I lived off of ibuphrofen for over 10 years and I do believe that it's helpful for MPB. With that said, don't take ibuprofen like I did for heaven's sake, lol. Serrepeptase is a good alternative pain reliever and anti-inflammatory.

Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Re: Increased blood flow to the scalp ... good or bad?

Who is online